Three Light

Come here for discussion about the new downtown entertainment district.
horizons82
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Re: Three Light

Post by horizons82 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:10 am

StrangerThings wrote:Speaking of baseball. If the downtown stadium option ever gets serious, Cordish is willing to partner to make it happen.
=D> =D> =D>

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Re: Three Light

Post by tower » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:24 am

Does Cordish have an opinion on the best site? Just curious. Personally, I'm not sold on the idea of putting it right downtown.

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Re: Three Light

Post by horizons82 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:48 am

I would hope they'd choose the Jackson County Jail site and kill two birds with one stone. You could build parking over 670 and it's a short walk to P&L which I'd think would appeal to Cordish.

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Re: Three Light

Post by KCPowercat » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:26 pm

I'm still a fan of some Vine district locale first....north loop or east village tie for second

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Re: Three Light

Post by GRID » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:45 pm

Cordish coming to KC is the absolute number one reason that Downtown is where it's at today. If Cordish had not come, downtown would still be gentrifying, but it would be at about 10% of the current progress. H&R Block wouldn't even be there. The Midland and movie theater would still be closed. I'm not even sure the Sprint Center would have been built.

And other than some decent infill (which probably wouldn't be happening if it were not for the initial Cordish investment) large scale private investment is still lacking in downtown KC. Cordish is still the only real major developer willing to even come up with a plan to build 25 story towers downtown.

So even if the city does try to re-negotiate with Cordish, I hope they also respect what Cordish has done for downtown KC and what they continue to do. Cordish could easily just walk away from the future phases of the P&L district and there is nobody willing to step in and do what Cordish is doing, even with incentives.

And a downtown ballpark is dead. lol At least in any of our lifetimes. KC does not have the corporate backing with an interest in downtown development it needs to support a downtown ballpark and the vast majority of voters wouldn't vote for a tax to build one. That ship has sailed. I would build in the east crossroads or east village if it ever did happen and there will always be land available to the east, especially north of 23rd, so no reason to land bank. You don't wan't a ballpark anywhere near the core of the cbd. Parking becomes too valuable in a cheap land city like KC. Look at Houston for an example of what a downtown ballpark would do. Parking lots galore that stay parking lots. Put the stadium on the edge of downtown density so one side of the stadium can have some surface lots without impacting the urban fabric.

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Re: Three Light

Post by Highlander » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:59 pm

GRID wrote:Cordish coming to KC is the absolute number one reason that Downtown is where it's at today. If Cordish had not come, downtown would still be gentrifying, but it would be at about 10% of the current progress. H&R Block wouldn't even be there. The Midland and movie theater would still be closed. I'm not even sure the Sprint Center would have been built.

And other than some decent infill (which probably wouldn't be happening if it were not for the initial Cordish investment) large scale private investment is still lacking in downtown KC. Cordish is still the only real major developer willing to even come up with a plan to build 25 story towers downtown.

So even if the city does try to re-negotiate with Cordish, I hope they also respect what Cordish has done for downtown KC and what they continue to do. Cordish could easily just walk away from the future phases of the P&L district and there is nobody willing to step in and do what Cordish is doing, even with incentives.

And a downtown ballpark is dead. lol At least in any of our lifetimes. KC does not have the corporate backing with an interest in downtown development it needs to support a downtown ballpark and the vast majority of voters wouldn't vote for a tax to build one. That ship has sailed. I would build in the east crossroads or east village if it ever did happen and there will always be land available to the east, especially north of 23rd, so no reason to land bank. You don't wan't a ballpark anywhere near the core of the cbd. Parking becomes too valuable in a cheap land city like KC. Look at Houston for an example of what a downtown ballpark would do. Parking lots galore that stay parking lots. Put the stadium on the edge of downtown density so one side of the stadium can have some surface lots without impacting the urban fabric.
The Sprint Center absolutely would not be there had it not been for the P&L District. There never would have been a point for moving it from one activity desert to another. Obviously, there was some organic growth in the Crossroads before the P&L district but it was still progressing at a snail's pace and there was absolutely going on nothing inside the loop except a few lofts in the old Garment District and Quality Hill. The district jump started investment in downtown - entertainment and residential and brought jobs in as well (HR Block). I have my doubts as to whether or not the street car would be there without the P&L District. We still lack the high paying jobs but downtown is becoming more and more the place to be in KC and that alone will eventually change the job situation as long as we don't start backstepping.

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Re: Three Light

Post by beautyfromashes » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:51 pm

StrangerThings wrote:Who do I need to wine and dine to get them to move their company downtown?! A few companies which 500-1000 employees moving downtown would be spectacular.
I don't know if there is any one demographic for trying to attract businesses downtown. I talked to the SwissRe decision maker before they made the choice to move DT. It was basically made for them by their corporate office in Europe. They want similar looks and feels for all their office space and locations, open concepts with shared long table space. Their buildout DT will actually be modeled after their London space which is in the 'Gerken' building. For most American companies, I think you have to see a shift in where CEOs live themselves. If a company leader is in a house in Hallbrook, they're likely going to look in that area. This is why it's important to market DT as a high end location to attract business leaders who can relocate. Having a school like Crossroads Adademy in the CBD is very important. While good universities being close would be nice, having UMKC on the new streetcar line should be sufficient. We're just now getting to the point where pulling some very large businesses could be possible. It should be the #1 major initiative of city representatives.

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Re: Three Light

Post by shinatoo » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:04 pm

I'm not going to be sold on a downtown stadium until there is some kind of regional rail system. Why should 90% of the people that will go to the game have to fight a traffic nightmare just so the 3-5 thousand that live downtown, and would attend a game, can walk back or go to a bar? I also would guess at least 80% of the people that attend are over 60 or have kids, neither of those groups wants to go out after the game. A downtown stadium would kill attendance in this city.

I used to want a DT stadium and was very unhappy with the renovation vote, but thinking about it from purely a business sense, DT doesn't make sense until there is some way there other than driving.
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Re: Three Light

Post by tower » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:05 am

beautyfromashes wrote:
StrangerThings wrote:Who do I need to wine and dine to get them to move their company downtown?! A few companies which 500-1000 employees moving downtown would be spectacular.
I don't know if there is any one demographic for trying to attract businesses downtown. I talked to the SwissRe decision maker before they made the choice to move DT. It was basically made for them by their corporate office in Europe. They want similar looks and feels for all their office space and locations, open concepts with shared long table space. Their buildout DT will actually be modeled after their London space which is in the 'Gerken' building. For most American companies, I think you have to see a shift in where CEOs live themselves. If a company leader is in a house in Hallbrook, they're likely going to look in that area. This is why it's important to market DT as a high end location to attract business leaders who can relocate. Having a school like Crossroads Adademy in the CBD is very important. While good universities being close would be nice, having UMKC on the new streetcar line should be sufficient. We're just now getting to the point where pulling some very large businesses could be possible. It should be the #1 major initiative of city representatives.
I remember a quote for the city manager a while back about how Neal Patterson (late cerner CEO) wanted to be able to drive for 15 mins and quickly find parking at Cerner's new campus. So getting big companies to relocate downtown will be an uphill battle when all the CEOs live in joco.

At the same time, Cerner and others like them seem to recognize the value of downtown to some degree, when Cerner brings people in for interviews and meetings they put them up downtown, their convention is downtown, etc. I think that it might be possible to get Cerner to open a campus downtown for training, interviews, cross-organization meetings, staging point for the convention, etc. They could also just move all the people they have on N. Oak trafficway down. I think that campus is mostly for the stuff I described, and that building is pretty old. They also have that old casino just for meetings and onboarding new hires.

They might be able to be convinced to move that into part of 4 light, especially if it had a hotel attached.

Idk about Sprint or Garmin, because they are pretty centralized, but Cerner has an absolutely stupid number of campuses. Even moving one downtown would be a pretty huge, at least psychologically.

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Re: Three Light

Post by normalthings » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:53 am

Can confirm that other senior management at Cerner feel the exact same way about home(in suburbs) to office drive times. It’s not completely unreasonable to not want a long commute though. Maybe an office tower on the Plaza is more reasonable? It would be close to the richest parts of JOCO but also a short streetcar ride away from downtown. It’s a win win for young employees who want an urban life and suburban living execs.


Another note: Amazon HQ 2 will land in a city like NYC where Jeff Bezos already has a home. Maybe we can buy or build condos downtown for the CEO’s of big companies to lure them in? I woukd be willing contribute 10 oxen and 2 mules to the construction effort.

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Re: Three Light

Post by beautyfromashes » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:29 am

We probably need a new thread for DT business attraction.

Its really hard to attract a move of a big, mature business. It's a huge expense and is disruptive to business. I think the only way to do it is if companies start to see that they are losing valuable, young personnel to other companies that have a better culture or location. I think we could start seeing this. DT is still a fairly young demographic but in a few years they will be a larger percentage of an organization and in higher positions. Probably best to focus on fast growing startups and mid-size businesses that want to beat market leaders to the best locations and capture the best workers.

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Re: Three Light

Post by FangKC » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:00 am

The extended streetcar line will help once it's built out. Kansas City is always about 20 years behind every other big city it seems.

Briarcliff is within the 15-minute Cerner commute. Has anyone driven from The National in the Northland to downtown during rush hour? How long does it take?

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Re: Three Light

Post by JLowe2018 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:54 am

FangKC wrote:Briarcliff is within the 15-minute Cerner commute. Has anyone driven from The National in the Northland to downtown during rush hour? How long does it take?
My mom used to make this commute to Hospital Hill. It took her about 25-30 minutes depending on traffic. Worst part was always the stoplight at the end of the Broadway bridge. Having a new bridge (that connects directly to I-35) could probably cut that drive time at least 5 minutes.

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Re: Three Light

Post by DaveKCMO » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:03 pm

StrangerThings wrote:So now these two city council members are really making a mess. They want 15% of one, two Light and future buildings to be set aside for low income housing. Are you kidding me? How’s that fair to people (like me) that are paying full rent? I’ve had to work hard to be able to afford this place, not sure I’m down with someone getting a fat discount because they don’t make enough money.
Um, okay. This is a major investment by the taxpayers and there's an affordable housing crunch. A small number of units carved out will not hurt you. Who the hell do you think will want to work in those restaurants when they have to commute in from Blue Springs just to afford the rent?

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Re: Three Light

Post by missingkc » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:11 pm

Affordable housing is necessary. It does not need to be available in every building. Not even in every block. When I worked downtown and needed affordable housing, I lived at 39th and Harrison. I could drive the short distance or take the Troost bus, if I wanted. What's wrong with that?

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Re: Three Light

Post by KCPowercat » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:22 pm

I think someone on here proposed a good compromise with Cordish....renovate the midland into affordable housing. I agree that three light shouldn't have to have an arbitrary percent of affordable housing....but not for the reasons stated by ST.

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Re: Three Light

Post by KCPowercat » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:24 pm

StrangerThings wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:
StrangerThings wrote:So now these two city council members are really making a mess. They want 15% of one, two Light and future buildings to be set aside for low income housing. Are you kidding me? How’s that fair to people (like me) that are paying full rent? I’ve had to work hard to be able to afford this place, not sure I’m down with someone getting a fat discount because they don’t make enough money.
Um, okay. This is a major investment by the taxpayers and there's an affordable housing crunch. A small number of units carved out will not hurt you. Who the hell do you think will want to work in those restaurants when they have to commute in from Blue Springs just to afford the rent?

So I’m expected to pay full rent while someone else can live in the same building, same unit and get a steep discount? Explain to me how that’s far? There are several income restricted apartments downtown. I’m all for affordable housing, I’m not ok with low income housing being in a “luxury” apartment building. How in the hell does that make any sense.
There aren't enough....the council is holding this carrot for Cordish to find a solution giving the city investment in these projects....it's not preposterous for there to be affordable housing mixed into with market rate housing...sorry if you don't think that's fair.

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Re: Three Light

Post by hgascoigne » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:29 pm


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Re: Three Light

Post by JBmidtown » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:45 pm

StrangerThings wrote:So now these two city council members are really making a mess. They want 15% of one, two Light and future buildings to be set aside for low income housing. Are you kidding me? How’s that fair to people (like me) that are paying full rent? I’ve had to work hard to be able to afford this place, not sure I’m down with someone getting a fat discount because they don’t make enough money.
The market’s going crazy! Poor people living with upper middle class people? Cats living with dogs? What’s next? Expecting a corporate entity to face the market directly without a subsidy shield?

Relax. Worse things have happened in human history than this slight to your status tower. After all this is just spectacle politicking. Those council members don’t give a fuck about poor people being housed. They just want those sweet, sweet votes.

Besides, if you’re a free market capitalist you’re aware that as housing stock increases but demand for that stock decreases (I really don’t see positive net migration truly booming anytime soon for KC) then price for that stock falls. Right? That’s the argument for incentivized development being a positive for the city after all. So when rent inevitably drops for luxury units and they’re affordable enough for lower social performers to move in what are you going to do? Is your pride for the Cordish product going to collapse as you migrate to another locale? Or will utopian equilibrium be met among the Lights?!

I mean I get your argument/concern. It sucks to work hard for a salary and you do it expecting to have access to better luxuries and comforts. But some people work hard just to keep their head above water let alone have the chance to advance to a white collar job. I don’t think you owe them anything and I think the 15% affordable housing politicking is petty and pointless and helps only a small chunk of working class people. But if you’re not careful your entitlement to your conspicuous consumption is just going to make you an insufferable prick. Just saying.

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Re: Three Light

Post by KCPowercat » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:47 pm

I don't agree with retroactively making part of 1/2 light affordable housing...and i think it's probably a little late to expect three light to have affordable housing. I also think the council should be a little more subtle in these dealings...we've got overall a good working relationship with Cordish...and demanding some of the most valuable properties be affordable housing is a bit extreme....it's good conversation to have (affordable housing downtown) but that doesn't mean it's right for every project...or even any of the Cordish new towers.

It still really bugs more Shields is part of this when she is the one who wants to force parking into every rent...which is some of the most expensive parts of these new buildings.

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