KCRag Forum

Public Works director mentioned during T&I this morning that there are now talks about "Three Light". Couldn't find an existing thread.

This is the building that if I were picking, I would plan for two floors for some kind of multi-story department store. Kohl's, Target, etc.

The entrance could be outside the train line making it the ultimate place for large retail downtown

Target already has a history of putting their stores on transit-friendly streets (downtown Minneapolis) so they're a fine partner for this

^Great idea for a Target location, which downtown could use. Cordish is one of few locally active developers who understand mixed-use in that way (would it complicate things if this ever goes condo?).

For Target to have interest they'd want certain level of downtown/midtown population/income to support it and not depend on rest of metro as there are other Targets. Not sure if downtown/midtown is there quite yet, enough for them to pull the trigger - especially given Northland has 2 I think and Ward Parkway not too far away. Downtown KC worker population also considerably smaller than Minneapolis.

Might have to be a unique retailer not in rest of metro, or not as widely.

A store downtown would be a lot more convenient than driving all the way to Mission, Independence, or Chouteau for at least dozens of thousands of people from eastern WyCo through the greater east side / northeast and near-in NKC, not to mention more convenient for a whole bunch of transit-dependent folks in the urban east side than going all the way out to Blue Ridge. I don't know if that's enough population or the right demographics to compel them to build a store, but I have a feeling they wouldn't have much trouble making money if they did.

The Target at Ward Parkway is 8 miles south of downtown. I know people that won't join 24 Hour fitness there because its too far to drive. A P&L area Target would definitely be supported and if they came on board with an Urban Target combined with Three Light which would be a couple/few years down the road, Downtown will have online a lot more residential between City Market to the Crossroads and additional hotels with visitors. Our downtown "area" should have about 25-30,000 by the time ThreeLight would come active.

I am not trying to stir up shit, but I'm curious about how all the kcraggers who clamor for more downtown retail think that a P&L Target will help their goals. A downtown Target will kill the likelihood of smaller retailers who would serve the neighborhoods. Before you reply to this, think about what you buy at Target and how many other retailers you would visit if you didn't go to Target.

As a disclaimer, I would go to Target, if it were in the P&L. But if it wasn't there, I would instead visit more local retailers, as I do. And I do go to Costco, instead of the 3 retailers, all local, I would frequent if Costco was not as conveniently close. And I feel a little guilty about it. But not guilty enough to stop doing it.

You know what they say... Big Box, Big... nevermind.

I always forget that there's a Target at Ward Parkway. On the rare occasion I go to Target, it's always a suburban one off a highway somewhere. Ward Parkway just doesn't seem as convenient to get to from here as it would be from Waldo or Brookside. I imagine it is the lack of a direct highway route.

I think taxi raises an interesting point, and certainly I wouldn't say I'm personally "clamoring" for a Target given that I don't generally shop there (I'm worse, actually: Amazon), but I do think it is something that would be perceived as a major desirable amenity by a very large portion of potential residents of downtown and the surrounding areas.

DaveKCMO wrote:Public Works director mentioned during T&I this morning that there are now talks about "Three Light". Couldn't find an existing thread.

Are there anymore details you can share?

Yeah, back to the good news that 3L already might have some action before 1L is fully occupied and 2L starts construction.

The northland has 9 grocery stores within approx 3 miles of NKC. It's just one example of how few people is takes for a large store to stay open.

Downtown can support more retail.

That anyone is mentioning a store on the other side of the river shows that people are willing to go a long distance to shop. That means there's demand for more retail

Looking back at some of the talks the mayor has given over the last year, three light has been mentioned more than once. Does this mean it is well on its way?

DaveKCMO wrote:Public Works director mentioned during T&I this morning that there are now talks about "Three Light". Couldn't find an existing thread.

Plan on a shitshow from the "Citizens" for Responsible Government cadre...

taxi wrote:I am not trying to stir up shit, but I'm curious about how all the kcraggers who clamor for more downtown retail think that a P&L Target will help their goals. A downtown Target will kill the likelihood of smaller retailers who would serve the neighborhoods. Before you reply to this, think about what you buy at Target and how many other retailers you would visit if you didn't go to Target.

As a disclaimer, I would go to Target, if it were in the P&L. But if it wasn't there, I would instead visit more local retailers, as I do. And I do go to Costco, instead of the 3 retailers, all local, I would frequent if Costco was not as conveniently close. And I feel a little guilty about it. But not guilty enough to stop doing it.

You know what they say... Big Box, Big... nevermind.

I would be less likely to shop at CVS. I generally buy only personal care stuff from Target. And the occasional furnishing or something.

It would be really cool if Cordish pulled off a hotel component for Three Light. Downtown is going through a hotel boom and I'm sure it's starting to get the attention of all the flags. There has to be some interest now compared to when Cordish scrapped the hotel part of One Light. One Light was originally going to be a 35 story tower with the top ten floors a hotel. Three light would be a perfect location between the P&L district and the Convention Center. It would also add some height to Three Light so that it doesn't end up as just a mirror of Two Light. Three light would look much nicer against the skyline if it were 10-15 stories higher than Two Light tapering up to the taller buildings behind it. It would be a perfect location for a W or if Downtown KC is not ready for that something like a Hyatt Place. Hyatt wants more properties in KC and they could do a Hyatt Place a few blocks form the new full service Hyatt while sharing the kitchen etc of the bigger hotel. I stayed in the new Hyatt Place/Apartment tower in Charlotte recently and it's much nicer than most suburban Hyatt Places. A rooftop entertainment area like Charlotte has would be amazing.

I'm sort of cautious about building another new construction hotel inside the loop right now. While there is a hotel boom, I want to see how the market plays out after all the currently-planned hotel rooms hit the downtown market. What I worry about is the smaller older hotel properties like the Phillips, Aladdin, and President. I would also throw in the remodeled Savoy Hotel and the old Federal Reserve/Embassy Suites project in that concern. I think the Aladdin and President still have city subsidies that could be affected if they lose a lot of room nights to newer "shinier" hotels being built now and later--like a Cordish hotel in Three Light. I don't know about the Phillips. Its' city incentives might have run out, or will soon. I can't remember how its' renovation was financed, and if the City still has game in that or not.

However, I'm not opposed to new hotels being constructed later, once it's been proven that already-subsidized older hotel structures won't be hurt. I'm sure they will be fine after some absorption happens in the market. I would certainly feel better about it if there were more jobs and companies coming downtown, and the hotel market was not as dependent on conventions, but on people visiting downtown residents and servicing downtown companies.

I say go ahead and build Three LIght as an apartment building. There are still other sites where new construction hotels could go inside the Loop around the Convention Center: both of the east-side corners of 14th and Wyandotte; south of the Aladdin Hotel along Wyandotte; the SW corner of 12th and Broadway; or even the Barney Allis Plaza block.

The owners of the Marriott buildings could build more rooms for Marriott brands. They could take the Muehlebach block and demolish that older addition and garage along Baltimore that is south of the original Muehlebach Hotel. They could also demolish that older garage at 1219 Baltimore. which they already own, and Budget car rental building, which they don't own, and combine it with the surface lot on the corner. Once that is all done, they could excavate that footprint and build a fairly large underground garage with some interior decks above ground, and then put a new hotel on top. The size of the garage structure would somewhat dictate how many hotel rooms they might eventually have in the tower. They would also have to replace any parking spots that Baltimore Lofts has on that surface lot.

Doing that would probably make it possible to also convert the old Muehlebach Hotel into apartments, since they could provide parking for those residents as well as all the new hotel guests.

I think you are correct in your concerns Fang. While I am happy to see an increase in hotel rooms and would have to assume it means there was some pent up demand, most hotels in cities in the US are driven by business customers and that is one thing I've not seen picking up in KC's urban core - an increase in occupied office space. To be honest, I'd rather have BNIM get incentives to stay than giving incentives to a large convention hotel. Hopefully, they will stay in the core.

Three Light is present in the back right side of the new 2 Light Renderings

Still hoping 3 Light won't look anything like 2, with very different materials. Someone posted a view from Liberty Memorial with 2 and 3 Light renderings and it looked like a long wall in front of downtown loop.