Three Light

Come here for discussion about the new downtown entertainment district.
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FangKC
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Re: Three Light

Post by FangKC » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:22 am

We have plenty of places to put shorter buildings in KC. In a luxury downtown high-rise, the selling point is the view. People want high floor apartments with views. Otherwise, what is the point of paying a premium for a downtown apartment? It's really stupid to invest millions in P&L, and not put up high-rises and create as much residential density as possible near a retail and entertainment district. We have time to wait for buildings to fill up, before starting new ones. The world will not end if a lot sits vacant for two more years instead of one.

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Re: Three Light

Post by flyingember » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:12 pm

ldai_phs wrote: If only that was what is happening. To me it would have made more sense to build 4 Light first due to it being a large hotel. That way there would have been less of a need for waiting on 2 Light to lease out.
Has there been any confirmation it's a hotel?

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Re: Three Light

Post by WoodDraw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:33 pm

NorthOak wrote:I was excited to think that 3 Light would begin construction as soon as 2 Light was completed (as when first announced).
I should have known that would be too ambitious for KC :roll:

As it all depends on how fast 2 fills up, now I think it could be up to a year or more before they break ground.
I understand these are high profile lots on the streetcar, but I wish they would scrap 3 and 4's design ideas and go shorter.
7-8 floors would keep the skyline density intact, allow them to start both tomorrow and then negotiate with the owners of the 12th & Grand lot to build something super tall and mixed use. (win, win, win)
This all sounds wrong to me, especially building 3 light before 2 light gets to what they're comfortable with. They're a fucking business.

I'm all for giving shit to cordish for some of their decisions and cost cuttings, but wtf? We can't just overbuild KC and pretend it's going to fill in around it. I know I have a one year freeze on my apartment's rent and others are offering incentives to move it.

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Re: Three Light

Post by NorthOak » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:15 am

WoodDraw wrote:I'm all for giving shit to cordish for some of their decisions and cost cuttings, but wtf? We can't just overbuild KC and pretend it's going to fill in around it. I know I have a one year freeze on my apartment's rent and others are offering incentives to move it.
No body is giving Cordish sh** or anything else. I'm stating a personal desire and opinion.
Next time I'll draw a little wishing well next to my comment so your head doesn't explode.
WoodDraw wrote:They're a fucking business.
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Re: Three Light

Post by WoodDraw » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:40 am

:rolling eyes emoji:

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Re: Three Light

Post by JBmidtown » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:58 pm

Lol

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Re: Three Light

Post by flyingember » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:40 pm

StrangerThings wrote:Battle of the woods going on here!
I believe one is a single tree

I also believe that building short makes it easier to tear down in the future for something bigger. Building bigger and having empty lots produces a better long term result

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Re: Three Light

Post by GRID » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:11 pm

Is there any chance 3 and 4 light go up at the same time since 4 is also a hotel? It would help complete the district and tie the entire district to the convention center and new lowes hotel. It just seems like it might actually be better to do the next two phases at the same time (along with the freeway deck). There has to be some serious interest in that hotel by some flags that are missing from downtown.

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Re: Three Light

Post by normalthings » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:35 pm

GRID wrote:Is there any chance 3 and 4 light go up at the same time since 4 is also a hotel? It would help complete the district and tie the entire district to the convention center and new lowes hotel. It just seems like it might actually be better to do the next two phases at the same time (along with the freeway deck). There has to be some serious interest in that hotel by some flags that are missing from downtown.
IMHO. It would make more sense to make 4 Light a Combination of Condo and Hotel and may even office instead of Apartment and Hotel.

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Re: Three Light

Post by GRID » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:52 pm

StrangerThings wrote:Building condos is a difficult task and tricky. You have to sell a certain amount of them before you can even break ground for example.

I don’t think it’s really feasible to build 3 and 4 at the same time considering your stretching your quality workforce kind of thin and the market could really change at any time. Would be great to get it all done and over with though.
I honestly think KC is already starting to reach a saturation point with new units downtown. There was a pent up demand for downtown living and that's being met, but without new and more jobs downtown, KC's downtown housing boom may be short lived compared to other cities. I hope that's not the case, but I have said all long that you have a finite number of people that will pay to live in a higher cost of living area only to commute to suburban office parks. KC developers have got to get some spec office space up and KC companies need to start moving back downtown in bigger numbers.

KC also still needs more downtown hotel rooms. Even with the new hotels coming online, the city will still be behind most peer cities in downtown hotel rooms and there are a few brands that should be represented downtown that are not and some of them would work very well with 150-200 rooms in a mixed use tower.

This is why it would make sense for Four Light to go up simultaneously with Three Light. Four Light could be mixed use with office, hotel, apartments and condos or some mix of them. The location is probably the best in the city for a high end mixed use tower.

If it's going to be another 300 rental apartments plus a 200 room hotel or something, then yea, it makes to wait till Two light is mostly leased up.

And if KC is not a large enough city to build two or three 25 story towers at once, then KC probably shouldn't be building them in the first place :). There were times when KC was building a half dozen skyscrapers at once during the late 80's and many cities today that at the same size as KC have multiple towers going up at the same time (much larger towers than what kc is putting up). The skilled labor for that kind of thing travels to where the development is happening. If KC went through a another major building boom, they would pull in union workers etc from all over the Midwest quite easily.

I like Cordish's projects and investment in downtown, but I'm still surprised that other national developers have not noticed what's going on in KC and come into the market. I mean the big guys. I know KC has low rise projects going up by out of town developers, but the city is still not getting much national attention by developers that would come into town and put up a 150 million dollar tower. I really think the city is ready for that level of development and that's what it will likely take to get more jobs downtown too.

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Re: Three Light

Post by WoodDraw » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:04 pm

What hotels work with Cordish? Hyatt obviously wants back into the market, but not sure they're a fit.

100% agree on office space. All of our developers seem happy to sit on land though and wait for a premade project to come at them.

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Re: Three Light

Post by WoodDraw » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:43 pm

StrangerThings wrote:
WoodDraw wrote:What hotels work with Cordish? Hyatt obviously wants back into the market, but not sure they're a fit.

100% agree on office space. All of our developers seem happy to sit on land though and wait for a premade project to come at them.
We desperately need a few big employers to move downtown. There's been some talks but no one has bought in yet. Cordish is more than willing to custom build some space for a great long-term tenant. I really wish someone would show interest in the midland office tower building so we could get that built out finally.

Cordish has partnered with Loews in other markets but obviously that's out here in KC. They've also began operating their own brand of hotels attached to their casinos under the "Live" brand. I feel here in KC, you need a national brand attachment. Hyatt would be great.
Every developer is happy to do that. We need one with credit that is willing to build on spec. I am not as connected a most people here, but I know of two lots that people are sitting on waiting for city subsidized building.

I'm excited to see what cordish can bring with a hotel. Hyatt seems a natural fit of they're into that. This is way outside my area of knowledge.

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Re: Three Light

Post by normalthings » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:27 am

4 Light with office and hotel makes more sense to me than an office 5 Light. I would think having a quality hotel in the same building as your offices would have many benefits

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Re: Three Light

Post by FangKC » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:13 am

I think part of the problem Kansas City has attracting other big developers is that they can make a better return on investment building in hotter markets.

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Re: Three Light

Post by DaveKCMO » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:43 pm

https://twitter.com/bturque/status/966848769001172992
City Council opposition to spending to $17.5 million for parking garage at Three Light is growing. After closed session Thursday CMs Canady and Shields introduce resolution asking for full legal and financial analysis of 2004 deal with Cordish.

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Re: Three Light

Post by JBmidtown » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:14 pm

Ooooooh snap.

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Re: Three Light

Post by KCPowercat » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:16 pm

The irony of Shields balking at apartment parking is not lost on me!

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Re: Three Light

Post by chaglang » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:56 pm

KCPowercat wrote:The irony of Shields balking at apartment parking is not lost on me!
Guessing it was the “Save Our Historic DTKC Surface Lots!” argument that won her over.

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Re: Three Light

Post by chaglang » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:11 am

It make be ultimately pointless with regard to the Cornish agreement, but if this is the start of a shift by the city away from building parking garages, Shields and Canaday can take all the time they want.

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Re: Three Light

Post by FangKC » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:42 am

The City is contractually obligated to contribute to building the garage. I doubt a review is going to change that. Shields and Canady are just playing politics here. Shields is running for mayor, so she wants to look like someone who is trying to save the City money, and appear as someone who is not pandering to developers. I would imagine she is mostly playing to Northland voters.

Canady represents a largely minority east-side district. Many of her constituents resent all the City spending downtown> Their neighborhoods have been ignored, and there is little new investment. It plays well for her to question any future investments elsewhere, and scrutinize past deals.

That's my guess. The City will have to carry out their contractual obligations. But Shields and Canady will be able to go to town halls and say they are laser-focused on saving money, and not in the pockets of downtown developers.
Last edited by FangKC on Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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