Two Light - 14th & Grand

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WoodDraw
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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby WoodDraw » Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:26 am

Also, let's put aside the defense that cordish just loves this architecture. They're doing it because it's cheap and we all know it.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby ldai_phs » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:03 am

StrangerThings wrote:You know what happens when a mid-sized city goes decades in between building high rise buildings? Massive changes in popular design. This “glass wall” argument is exhausting and frutile.

Is it Cordish’s responsibility and financial burden to go out of their way to build drastically different buildings to maintain how it looks from a certain vantage point? Shouldn’t we be looking at the fact that this city’s most iconic high rise buildings have all been built in clusters during certain decades?

The early 1900’s,commerce and others. The 30’s, 909 walnut, PNL and others. The 80’s, OKCP, Town pavilion, AT&T. Now, 1-4 Light, 30 years after the most recent serious high rise downtown construction. So is it shocking that designs and preferred finishes have changed in the last 30 years? You’ll notice all those iconic buildings are very similar in style if built within the same decade. I’m sure shit was talked in the 80’s when ground was broke on one KC place and Town Pavilion about how they were going to ruin the beautiful skyline with all that glass which would block the Art Deco decor of the buildings constructed 50 years prior. :/

I generally agree with you, but how hard or expensive would it be to change up the colors or sizes of the glass panel?

It looks to me like there isn't a silver flashing or whatever between the glass on 2 Light. How hard would it be to use black or blue colored metal next time?

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby shinatoo » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:35 am

it's a lack of desire. there are plenty of options in a similar price range for cladding and glazing.

To ST's point. cordish does have a responsibility to the city to deliver an aesthetically pleasing product that integrates with the cities aesthetic. The city and its residents are your partners, customers and, to some degree, financers.

To the point of the skyline view from Liberty Memorial: it is going to continue to evolve in ways that we make not like. If the city continues to grow it is going to be to the south toward the Crossroads. We ensured that when we put in the streetcar. The Light towers will probably be mostly obscured from Liberty memorial in the next 20 years.

IMO the light towers are O.K. There nothing to put on a city tour, but they aren't "flashcube" buildings either. Hopefully one if the future towers, maybe the Hotel/Office/Residential one, will make more financial sense to have more "iconic" design. Priority one should still be to make them work at the street level.
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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby tower » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:16 am

shinatoo wrote:... Priority one should still be to make them work at the street level.


Agreed. No one moves to a city just for the skyline at a specific angle. Someone might care about the skyline from their condo/apartment, but no one lives at liberty memorial. People do move to a city based off of how it feels at ground level.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby TheLastGentleman » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:26 am

StrangerThings wrote:Is it Cordish’s responsibility and financial burden to go out of their way to build drastically different buildings to maintain how it looks from a certain vantage point? Shouldn’t we be looking at the fact that this city’s most iconic high rise buildings have all been built in clusters during certain decades?

The early 1900’s,commerce and others. The 30’s, 909 walnut, PNL and others. The 80’s, OKCP, Town pavilion, AT&T. Now, 1-4 Light, 30 years after the most recent serious high rise downtown construction. So is it shocking that designs and preferred finishes have changed in the last 30 years? You’ll notice all those iconic buildings are very similar in style if built within the same decade. I’m sure shit was talked in the 80’s when ground was broke on one KC place and Town Pavilion about how they were going to ruin the beautiful skyline with all that glass which would block the Art Deco decor of the buildings constructed 50 years prior. :/

The difference between the older buildings you listed and the Light towers is that the former, while built in clusters of similar styles, are nowhere near as repetitive as latter. Even the postmodern towers have major differences in massing and cladding. The issue I have with the current plan is that it feels like a missed opportunity to add quality architecture and variety to a prominent location, especially since other great buildings will be getting totally or partially obscured. We're not asking for starchitecture here, just something doesn't look copy-pasted

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby TheLastGentleman » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:47 am

tower wrote:
shinatoo wrote:... Priority one should still be to make them work at the street level.


Agreed. No one moves to a city just for the skyline at a specific angle. Someone might care about the skyline from their condo/apartment, but no one lives at liberty memorial. People do move to a city based off of how it feels at ground level.

That view is so popular and used in so much promotional material that it's likely many people's first image of the city, at least the first impressive image and should be considered as such. Also, the "wall" effect won't be exclusive to that view since they're all lined up in a perfect row. In the crossroads, for instance, there will be places where the only thing you'll be able to see are the towers, so they could at least have the courtesy to be interesting

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby StrangerThings » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:24 pm

KCPowercat wrote:ughhh I know. These art deco towers are soooo disgusting.

Criticism isn't always fun but being super defensivie (comparing to art deco) is bad form.



Who’s saying Art Deco is disgusting? Art Deco happens to be one of my favorite eras in architectural history. Once again, the point seems to have went over your head. My point is this city builds in clusters often 30 years apart. Styles change and it’s unrealistic to ask any developer to build something that’s not current and common design. Look at all buildings being built right now across the country. Most are heavy on the glass.

Critical is fine, but at this point the “Cordish glass wall” argument is insanity. It keeps getting brought up but the results won’t change. Can we move on? It’s been beat to beyond death.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby KCPowercat » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:27 pm

it was a joke.

1-3 light is not like the modern day art deco towers....so drawing that comparison is silly.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby StrangerThings » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:31 pm

WoodDraw wrote:Also, let's put aside the defense that cordish just loves this architecture. They're doing it because it's cheap and we all know it.


I shouldn’t even respond to such a stupid comment but I can’t resist.

These buildings aren’t cheap. Do some research and compare them to other buildings of similar height and size all around be world and you’ll find they cost the same as those. 108-130 million dollars.

I’ll let the experts make the call and not the haters. One Light has won various national awards including an award for excellent from the ULI which has 40,000 members who are all involved in various aspects of urban development. Cheap buildings don’t win awards. Hate on though.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby StrangerThings » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:31 pm

KCPowercat wrote:it was a joke.

1-3 light is not like the modern day art deco towers....so drawing that comparison is silly.


Jokes aren’t your thing I guess.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby StrangerThings » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:39 pm

I think the most popular and most often photographed angle of the DT skyline is from the union station angle. I believe the light buildings will enhance that view and sit nicely within the taller structures to the north.

Image

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby KCPowercat » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:51 pm

StrangerThings wrote:
WoodDraw wrote:Also, let's put aside the defense that cordish just loves this architecture. They're doing it because it's cheap and we all know it.

These buildings aren’t cheap. Do some research and compare them to other buildings of similar height and size all around be world and you’ll find they cost the same as those. 108-130 million dollars.


Can you provide a link to where this comes from...I'm not disagreeing, I'm just interested in the data


I’ll let the experts make the call and not the haters.


For so many comments about how your organization cares about the neighborhood and community, comments like this seem to fly in the face of that...dismissing comments as being "haters" is rude.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby TheLastGentleman » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:52 pm

I didn't realize tinting the color of glass was such a big deal.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby kas1 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:58 pm

I had initially assumed that Four Light would occupy only the western half of its block, such that it would have the same footprint as Two and Three but rotated 90 degrees. If Cordish were simply to limit the height of what they build on the sliver that fronts Main it would do a lot to open up view corridors while still allowing a perfectly reasonable footprint for a tower.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby TheLastGentleman » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:18 pm

kas1 wrote:I had initially assumed that Four Light would occupy only the western half of its block, such that it would have the same footprint as Two and Three but rotated 90 degrees. If Cordish were simply to limit the height of what they build on the sliver that fronts Main it would do a lot to open up view corridors while still allowing a perfectly reasonable footprint for a tower.

Yeah, making the western part of the tower taller and shortening the southern part could look really good. I've always really liked how 1 light looks from the south, so if they could mimic that I'd be happy

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby StrangerThings » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:24 pm

The haters comment comes from a place of frustration. As someone who generally likes to please everyone, it’s a bit much to always hear the glass wall knock. We do listen to the feedback. We do fly all around the country to perform market research. We look at various design possibility’s. The vast majority of Kansas City’s population like the design of the buildings.... or they don’t care much about it. My hater comment was also specifically targeted at WoodDraw for calling the design choice “cheap”. He has to be a hater or incredibly uneducated about hi-rise construction. Cordish has spent over 200 million dollars in the last 4 years on high rise construction, for some that’s still cheap I guess.


As for comparisons.

Dallas - One Uptown Tower. 20 floors, 195 units, 85 million.
Chicago - The Sinclair. 35 floors, 390 units, 260 million.
Two Light - 24 floors,196 units (less than OL), 120 million.

When you break these projects and others around the country down to the per unit price they’re all in the $420,000-520,000 range. Small adjustments to account for where they’re being built as construction costs tend to run a bit higher in places like Chicago and NYC.

Tonget to that next level of architectural design, which Cordish would love to do, you start to get into the 250 million + range like One Bennett Park in Chicago which is a Art Deco style building with 67 floors and only 350 units. 90 of which are condos. The penthouses will sell for 15 million dollars.

Accordingly to our research, that demand doesn’t exist here in Kansas City. If a big a few big time companies move down here with high ranking executives behind them before 4 Light starts, maybe the design and budget will drastically change.

Oh, and if you’re in the condo market, Three Light will have some available to purchase.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby KCPowercat » Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:16 pm

Thanks for those comparisons....man I'd love 2 or 3 light to do something like One Uptown....

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby im2kull » Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:26 pm

StrangerThings wrote:The haters comment comes from a place of frustration...

...it’s a bit much to always hear the glass wall knock.


Why do you think that is?

This isn't rocket science. People are clearly disappointed with the "Glass Wall" look. Maybe you should try advising that to the higher ups and pushing for change, instead of defending the same thing over and over.. expecting to hear better feedback.

Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby StrangerThings » Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:53 pm

im2kull wrote:
StrangerThings wrote:The haters comment comes from a place of frustration...

...it’s a bit much to always hear the glass wall knock.


Why do you think that is?

This isn't rocket science. People are clearly disappointed with the "Glass Wall" look. Maybe you should try advising that to the higher ups and pushing for change, instead of defending the same thing over and over.. expecting to hear better feedback.

Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results.



You’re too late, I already used insanity to describe you all complaining about it and expecting a different result. The vast majority of people and most importantly the people looking to pay to live in these buildings don’t have an issue with the glass wall.

So yes, complain about it for the next 6 years but unless a market for super high end units suddenly pops up, the glass isn’t going anywhere. That decision has been made.

Maybe someone could throw together a “save certain skyline angles” protest.

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Re: Two Light - 14th & Grand

Postby KCPowercat » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:10 pm

any handwringing about skyline views is silly in my mind, it's constantly evolving (hopefully)....i'd agree there.


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