Is the P&L District underwhelming? 100% serious question

[trailerkid]

Too much competition for the Peach Tree at P&L.  They were the big dog at 18th and Vine.  

huh? competition meaning famous dave's, gordon biersch, and pizza bar?

a big problem at P&L with all the restaurants in the evenings is there aren't consistent dining crowds. it's all event-related traffic. Cordish didn't land enough destination restaurants to draw people in from Midtown, the suburbs, Northland. if anything, it's the extremely high level of local competition elsewhere in the city that's killing P+L dining.

[KCPowercat]

Bristol and peachtree are destinations.

There are quite a few residents, tourists, and office workers around too....not everything needs to be a destination....we eat too.

[trailerkid]

Bristol and peachtree are destinations.

There are quite a few residents, tourists, and office workers around too....not everything needs to be a destination....we eat too.

we were promised a destination-- not happy hour for the few hundred people that live around the P+L District. if you're happy with everything being slow most days...so be it. there are probably only a few places down there that are doing well financially that aren't strict nightclubs.

[KCPowercat]

It's no slower than any other restaurant in any other neighborhood. The entire thing is a destination, nobody ever said every space would be and 'omg, I have to drive from shawnee to go there' place. We (downtown regulars) needed stuff too.

[trailerkid]

It's no slower than any other restaurant in any other neighborhood. The entire thing is a destination, nobody ever said every space would be and 'omg, I have to drive from shawnee to go there' place. We (downtown regulars) needed stuff too.

P+L wasn't built and shouldn't be subsidized by the public for the "downtown regulars." There aren't the caliber of restaurants for it to be a destination for any tourists outside the immediate downtown area or suburbanites. Maybe if it was a dining destination...the public subsidy wouldn't be as high. Cordish doesn't know squat about dining or retail and it's showing. Shouldn't our expectations be high? Why are you arguing for the lowering of expectations? I understand you need a variety of tenants (The Mixx to 801 to Fran's) but so far it simply isn't a destination for people that want good food and doesn't compare well to existing local institutions and/or neighborhoods. 

P+L restaurants on non-event nights are slower than the Plaza, Waldo, Brookside, W 39th, or Westport restaurants. I'd be willing to take a bet on that.

[beautyfromashes]

P+L restaurants on non-event nights are slower than the Plaza, Waldo, Brookside, W 39th, or Westport restaurants. I'd be willing to take a bet on that.

All those mentioned have been around and stable for 50+ years.  P&L has been around for less than 5.  People are creatures of habit.  I am actually impressed with how much has been accomplished downtown in such a short period of time and how little poaching there has been from other area districts. 

[KCPowercat]

Overall ignorant stance. Nobody is lowering expectations.

[trailerkid]

Overall ignorant stance. Nobody is lowering expectations.

you just said it doesn't have to be "omg. i wanna drive in from shawnee to eat there." <<< that was 100% the point of P&L from the beginning. to draw traffic downtown from outer areas and even hours away. no one is driving to KC from Omaha to eat @ Peachtree, GB, Raglan Road or Maker's Mark, but I guarantee people drive here to eat at the Capital Grille, Bluestem, OK Joe's or Fogo.

[trailerkid]

All those mentioned have been around and stable for 50+ years.  P&L has been around for less than 5.  People are creatures of habit.  I am actually impressed with how much has been accomplished downtown in such a short period of time and how little poaching there has been from other area districts. 

What about Crossroads/Freighthouse vs. P&L?

IMHO, Crossroads/Freighthouse is a bigger dining destination than P&L as well and that area hasn't been a dining destination for much longer.

[beautyfromashes]

IMHO...

Funny!

[trailerkid]

Funny!

address the point instead of making jokes.

[beautyfromashes]

IMHO, Crossroads/Freighthouse is a bigger dining destination than P&L as well and that area hasn't been a dining destination for much longer.

My point exactly...I would guess that if you just count people living in downtown and the Crossroads there would be absolutely no way you could sustain the amount of restaurants/bars that are in those districts now.  To almost double your capacity by opening P&L and see very few establishments close in the two districts you have to be drawing people from outside the area. 

Oh, and if there wasn't any room on this board for jokes there wouldn't be any place for you to post.  Don't take yourself so seriously!

[KCPowercat]

I disagree that was the point of the entire p&l.  In fact an entire block was always dedicated to services and another to retail for downtown.

[LenexatoKCMO]

. no one is driving to KC from Omaha to eat @ Peachtree, GB, Raglan Road or Maker's Mark, but I guarantee people drive here to eat at the Capital Grille, Bluestem, OK Joe's or Fogo.

Bluestem is an outlier in both class and location but how much are some of your other examples at least partially due to the locations themselves - that is to say hypothetically that if say perhaps Makers Mark and GB were on the Plaza and it was instead Fogo and Cheescake Factory in the P&L their fortunes might be at least partially reversed.  It seems to me that at least part of the "destination" hype that plaza-area restaurants develop, comes from the location itself.  I suspect you could put quite a few of the P&L restaurants on the plaza and they would suddenly pop up on the destination radar of your Omaha visitors.  P&L just hasn't developed that neighborhood power yet - at least not for restaurants, maybe it has for bars.  

With the exception of bar hopping, the P&L itself just hasn't established itself as a "destination" - and perhaps that is a bit disapointing.  If Joe Blow from Omaha is bringing the wife and/or kids down for a fun weekend in KC, nothing to do with a concert or anything at SC, than he is probably still going to book his hotel room exclusively around the Plaza and unless they are big partiers, they probably don't have any reason at all to include P&L on the itenerary. 

[trailerkid]

I disagree that was the point of the entire p&l.  In fact an entire block was always dedicated to services and another to retail for downtown.

the grocery store and the surrounding neighborhood retail was not the motivation of brining Cordish in, redeveloping a huge swath of land downtown, and paying an annual subsidy in the millions. the point was reinventing the CBD as a destination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4whMbs6NWE

"the new heartbeat of the city"

"world-class entertainment, retail, office, and residential"

"redefine KC from its skyline to its sidewalks"

"catalyst for transforming downtown Kansas City"

"vibrant, world-class environment"

^^^^ had any of this came true i wouldn't be griping. decent, but not a "new heartbeat" or "world-class" anything. overpromised, underdelivered. i guess it could've been a lot worse like Block E in MPLS.

[beautyfromashes]

had any of this came true i wouldn't be griping. decent, but not a "new heartbeat" or "world-class" anything. overpromised, underdelivered. i guess it could've been a lot worse like Block E in MPLS.

Again, it's been less than 5 years, actually it wasn't really completed until a little over two years ago!!!! How long did you think this would take?  Come on, don't be the guy that just wants to complain about everything.  Don't be that guy.

[trailerkid]

Again, it's been less than 5 years, actually it wasn't really completed until a little over two years ago!!!! How long did you think this would take?  Come on, don't be the guy that just wants to complain about everything.  Don't be that guy.

90% of the restaurant space is leased-- likely with 5-10 year leases. you think the area is going to drastically improve and become "world-class" after Famous Dave's lease expires in 2017?

[KCPowercat]

Heartbeat of a city to means to me for the residents.

It's still evolving even during the economic conditions....let it grow. I get it, your thing is to bitch about everything in KC.  We get it.

[mean]

Pretty much agree with TK here. Cordish didn't bring in anything all that earth-shattering. What they did get is OK, and obviously an improvement over what was there, but it is undeniably a disappointment relative to what we were sold. That's fine. I'll take it (not that I have a choice) but acting like P&L is now or will soon be anything even remotely deserving of being called "world-class" is pure and simple self-delusion. They're never even going to get something as relatively pedestrian as a Bobby Flay concept, let alone a second location for moto, etc. And I think the "jeez, let it grow" argument is BS. This isn't an organic development that will take time to mature, it is a master-planned super-district which, if they could have gotten something huge and major and world-class, they'd have done it from the beginning. It makes zero sense to be like, "We've got Ferran Adria waiting to open up El Bulli 2 here in KC, but we're going to hold out a few years to let it grow first." What!?  Ridiculous.

[KCPowercat]

Also ridiculous, unrealistic expectations and definitions of 'world class'  world class what exactly?  Marketing speak rawks.

I do know the overall impression of it by those who don't self loathe KC think its awesome.  The number of times I've heard "wow we need something like this in my city" outnumbers "this isn't world class" 100 to 1