Long-term prognosis of Power and Light District

[Highlander]

Am not sure what you mean by consistent since downtown has had its downs for many of the last 40 years, or so says many who post here.

While downtown has had its downs, it is still arguably the job and entertainment center of the metro.  Suburban areas pop up and disappear completely never to return as a relevant force in regional development.  They are simply subject to obsolesence when the next happening place blossoms up another 5 miles outboard.  Can you name a suburban area that has passed through that transition and returned as a relevant part of the metro's retail or entertainment scene?  I can't.  Ward Parkway is barely hanging in there, Blue Ridge Mall is a Walmart, Bannister Mall stands deserted, Metro North is on its way out and Metcalf South is on life support.  Oak Park has had an amazing run (for suburbia) but how long will that continue with demographics shifted away from it?

[aknowledgeableperson]

I don't know if you would call dt the job center of the area since it has only about 30% of the area's jobs, and probably less if you consider the dt boundry of old.

With regards to Ward Parkway every time I drive by the parking lot is rather busy so I don't know about "barely hanging in there".

Blue Ridge Mall has had a rebirth with Walmart and other stores which also seem to be rather busy.

Downtown has yet to return as a relevant part of the metro's retail scene.  What retail has taken the place of Macy's, Jones, the Palace, and many other retailers of old?

So anyway, downtown has fewer jobs now than 40 years ago, at least when you look at the percentage of jobs in the area and possibly total number of jobs.  Same with regards to retail, lower percentage of the area's sales and lower amount of sales when inflation is taken into account.  With regards to entertainment that is such a broad catagory that it should be broken down:  movies - fewer screens and less attendance now, dining options less now, Broadway plays has downtown being consistent, sports has downtown being consistent. 

[KCPowercat]

akp....what is the point of all of your postings about downtown?

[KC-wildcat]

I don't know if you would call dt the job center of the area since it has only about 30% of the area's jobs, and probably less if you consider the dt boundry of old.

With regards to Ward Parkway every time I drive by the parking lot is rather busy so I don't know about "barely hanging in there".

Blue Ridge Mall has had a rebirth with Walmart and other stores which also seem to be rather busy.

Downtown has yet to return as a relevant part of the metro's retail scene.  What retail has taken the place of Macy's, Jones, the Palace, and many other retailers of old?

So anyway, downtown has fewer jobs now than 40 years ago, at least when you look at the percentage of jobs in the area and possibly total number of jobs.  Same with regards to retail, lower percentage of the area's sales and lower amount of sales when inflation is taken into account.  With regards to entertainment that is such a broad catagory that it should be broken down:  movies - fewer screens and less attendance now, dining options less now, Broadway plays has downtown being consistent, sports has downtown being consistent. 

I know that you're not solely responsible for this tangent, but this thread really shouldn't be about Ward Parkway and Blue Ridge. 

Keep it to P&L.

I don't think anybody is arguing that DTKC is a shell of what it used to be.  In fact, I think this is precisely the point being made by several P&L proponents.  The dining and entertainment scene could and should be more active.  I think P&L is a huge step in the right direction.  I believe retail will grow along with a growing DT population.  Anymore, people shop in proximity to their homes (unless the shopping is unique, ie Nebraska Furniture Mart, Cabelas, etc.). 

Will P&L survive?  I think so.  It's a good product.  There is something for everybody.  AMC, Rep. Theatre, Midland, PAC, Arena, Art Galleries, Restuarants, Bars.  Hotels, Condos, Lofts, Apartments all walking distance.  It's a very unique setting.  You can get bits and pieces of this all across the metro, but no central spot has all of it.  I think this is why you see thousands of people flood DTKC every weekend.

Mix in a couple thousand new DT residents over the next several years and I think the neighborhood's sustainability is further bolstered. 

[aknowledgeableperson]

akp....what is the point of all of your postings about downtown?

What are your points? And points made by others?

I think that's why I love dt so much more now....I wouldn't call myself a pioneer but was down here way before it was 'cool' by the masses....so now I have the old downtown with its fun lesser known places and the p&l now that gives people the open mind to come try things out....after they see p&l and then I sneak them off to a non-p&l place, they get to see both sides....and I can now enjoy a fun unbeat atmosphere at p&l or a lesser known downbeat place....all in walking distance.  It rocks.  (not to mention the best grocer in the city)

Your thinking is a bit too linear.  If the P&L District continues to rely on patrons imported from the burbs and the occasional concert/Big XII tournament, it is now all that it will ever be.  If downtown thrives as a residential area, which means it probably is also thriving as a workplace, everything you think is limited about the P&L District will change.  Already, the place has a grocery store and theater which is serving a local community.  I do not think downtown has to change radically to round out the P&L District but downtown does need to score a few more thousand office workers which will, in turn, have the desired effect on residential.  Nothing is going to change with the venues that the P&L District offers until that happens. 

I'm glad the Power and Light District is there, but make no mistake: I thought downtown was the best part of town well before any of that was under construction or even being discussed. I'm not touting myself as some kind of urban pioneer- I'm not. There's just no part of town that had the number and variety of fun, interesting bars within walking distance that downtown had when I moved there in 2003. That has been a bit wiped off by the Power and Light District, but there's still a ton to do downtown, and it remains, even without the P&L(which I rarely visit) my favorite neighborhood in town.

The difference will be that as the current 20-something group ages, they will have had a history of going downtown and to the district.  Although they may not live in DT as they mature and have families, going downtown will be something that they won't have a problem doing the rest of their lives.  Even in the worst of times, downtown has had a more viable and consistent history than some of its suburban counterparts.  It will always be relevant, the Indian Springs, Blue Ridge Malls, Bannister Malls, Metcalfe Souths and many other suburban competitors of this world are fleeting and temporary.

I am 50 now and probably the last of the last generation (until now) of people that grew up with a history of going downtown.  That's why I love it there, I went to Macy's, EBT, Italian Gardens and Jennie's all the time as a kid and young adult and it gave me a familiarity with the urban core that many of my slightly younger friends never had.  Same will be true for the current generation enjoying their time in the District.

Now, Highlander made a few statements in the above post that concerned dt that were not accurate, in my view, and I responed.  He then responded and I responded back.  This whole thread is about the long term prognosis of the P&L District which I take as an invite to post what you think the future holds for the area.  Maybe my thoughts on this subject are different than others but no less valid.  Afterall, none of us have a crystal ball to peer into and acturately see the future.

Will P&L survive?  I think so.  It's a good product.  There is something for everybody.  AMC, Rep. Theatre, Midland, PAC, Arena, Art Galleries, Restuarants, Bars.  Hotels, Condos, Lofts, Apartments all walking distance.  It's a very unique setting.  You can get bits and pieces of this all across the metro, but no central spot has all of it.  I think this is why you see thousands of people flood DTKC every weekend.

I haven't questioned P&L survival, just made statements about what it may look like in the future as opposed to what it looks like now and what the current plans are.  Made a change to your post since I was warned to keep it to the P&L and you seemed to also divert from the subject at hand.

[KCPowercat]

got it, you have no point.

[KC-wildcat]

I haven't questioned P&L survival, just made statements about what it may look like in the future as opposed to what it looks like now and what the current plans are.  Made a change to your post since I was warned to keep it to the P&L and you seemed to also divert from the subject at hand.

Good one.  Unfortunately, AMC, Rep. Theatre, Midland, PAC, Arena, Art Galleries, Restuarants, Bars are all part of the P&L.  Point taken on the remainder.  Though, again, these remaining projects are more relevant to the P&L's "long-term prognosis" than Ward Parkway and Bannister Malls. 


With that little issue cleared up, I again find myself wondering what your point is. 

Are you merely pointing out that P&L will change over time?  just made statements about what it may look like in the future as opposed to what it looks like now.  If so, what's the point?  Of course it will change over time.  True to form, you use a lot of words to make a simple observation. 

Care to opine as to the sustainability of this project?  Do you see it growing residential, retail?  Will it provide the City a return on investment?  You know, actual tangible measurements. 

[aknowledgeableperson]

Care to opine as to the sustainability of this project?  Do you see it growing residential, retail?  Will it provide the City a return on investment?  You know, actual tangible measurements. 

Tangible measurements?  Return on investment?  Who else had to provide those for their points?  Including your post:

Will P&L survive?  I think so.  It's a good product.  There is something for everybody.  AMC, Rep. Theatre, Midland, PAC, Arena, Art Galleries, Restuarants, Bars.  Hotels, Condos, Lofts, Apartments all walking distance.  It's a very unique setting.  You can get bits and pieces of this all across the metro, but no central spot has all of it.  I think this is why you see thousands of people flood DTKC every weekend.

Mix in a couple thousand new DT residents over the next several years and I think the neighborhood's sustainability is further bolstered.

But you seem to overlook one post I had that might answer most of your questions.

To follow up on my previous post I will break down the P&L into various sections.  This is not so much as to predict, just presenting a "possible" future.

The area that was to be a hotel will not become a hotel, at least for 10 to 15 years, if KC decides to build a conventin hotel.  Not that they would be in direct price competition but many will see the P&L hotel taking away business from the convention hotel.  Also there will be the concern about supporting both hotels given the city's current financial condition.

The area that was to be residential will have to wait at least 5 years before construction is contemplated, and that might be conservative.  The current economy and credit markets just don't line up right for a project like this.

The retail portion is what it is and will not improve in the foreseeable future.  One of the major things holding back retail here is the lack of population (another thing is the economy).  Yes, the daytime population may be high but few of them will actually shop.  What is needed is people living in the area and that is hurt by the item mentioned above.

The Empire/Midland buildings will survive but will not be the winners that many expected.  Out of the two the Midland will perform better.  The movie theaters will become just another set of screens for AMC and will likely age like the Ward Parkway theaters.

KC Live is a tough one to predict.  Restaurant/bar options will come and go depending on what is hot and what's not.  The big change just might be in the outdoor area.  As the current 20somethings grow older have have families they just might want an area to bring the kids to.  So this outdoor area just might become more family themed.  On Fri or Sat nights having open air concerts like Crown Center had, or show family movies.  It just might compete for the types of festivals Crown Center hosts.

The last paragraph was what everyone else (including you) seemed to focus on and caused most of the posts to this tread since the early morning of Oct 2.  Go back and review the posts about the venn diagram, outsiders and long time residents, and some other off-topic subjects.

[KCPowercat]

your entire post of a 'possible outcome' had no point than to rile up the board....

its like if I said a possible outcome for your neighborhood was to turn into a drughouse hood, or be hit with flooding, or mass drop in housing values....what point does that make other than attempt to incite emotion in you...then I could just sit back and innocently claim ' just predicting a possible outcome'

makes no sense.

[mean]

your entire post of a 'possible outcome' had no point than to rile up the board....

its like if I said a possible outcome for your neighborhood was to turn into a drughouse hood, or be hit with flooding, or mass drop in housing values....what point does that make other than attempt to incite emotion in you...then I could just sit back and innocently claim ' just predicting a possible outcome'

makes no sense.

What is there to get riled up about? He's probably right for the most part, although I don't see KC Live! going the family style route of Crown Center. Too many bars, too much focus on nightlife. It will stay that way, I imagine.

But, no hotel for 10 or 15 years? Seems plausible. No residential for 5 years? Seems certain. Retail going nowhere for the foreseeable future? Seems obvious. Movie theater doesn't become a big winner? Seems plausible.

What's the big deal? You could sum up 97.63% of AKP's posts with, "downtown and/or the urban core might not be as successful as you hope." Well, duh.

[KCPowercat]

riled up?

sorry...thanks for getting me back in pocket.

[chrizow]

i wish we could get back to making fun of people who go to the P+L District...

[KCPowercat]

here I am...went friday.  It was packed.  Flame away.

[chrizow]

[LenexatoKCMO]

here I am...went friday.  It was packed.  Flame away.

Perfect rebuttal to AKP: As long as KCP and his harem/hangers on are in town, P&L will do just fine. 

[KCPowercat]

chriz...we should go together and you can point out to me all the reasons I should hate it

[chrizow]

chriz...we should go together and you can point out to me all the reasons I should hate it

you dont exist.  it has been proven over the last 5 forum meetups.

[aknowledgeableperson]

your entire post of a 'possible outcome' had no point than to rile up the board....

"rile up the board" - NO.  To get the board to think about another path development could take - YES.  Is it likely that what I posted will come true - PROBABLY NOT.  At the same time, though, changes do happen that no one actually saw coming 10 to 20 years in the past.

As the current 20somethings age many will get married and/or have kids.  And they may want a place downtown to bring their kids on a Friday and/or Saturday night.  And that may be seen by the developer.

Yes, those current 20somethings will be replaced by a new generation of 20somethings.  Those new 20somethings could prefer an area that is still downtown but for them is a new hotspot that could be developed in the loop or in the X-roads.  Anyway, KC Live may not be the scene that it is now and Cordish, or a successor developer, may want to reinvent the area to make it an area to draw a different crowd.  Much like my and wife and our friends would take the kids to the Friday night concerts at Crown Center that reinvent could make the courtyard into something different than it is now.

If that "riles" you up then you must have a very, very low boiling point.

"downtown and/or the urban core might not be as successful as you hope."

rather "downtown and/or the urban core might not be developed as you hope but with a different vision"

 

[KCPowercat]

Things change.  Thanks for tipping us off.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Things change.  Thanks for tipping us off.

You are welcome.  Sometimes I get the impression that you don't see things ever changing.

Funny.  I went through the thread and there is nothing in your postings about what "your" view is of the "Long-term prognosis of the P&L District".  Yeah, you have postings about what the place is now and downtown in general but what about what you see for the future of the P&L?  You want to be critical of me - fine.  But, at least, I did post my thoughts about what the future could be.  Come on, we know about how you feel about the present, now tell us about what you see in the future.  Will there be a hotel?  Condos?  If so when might they be built?  What about the retail area?  And what about the KC Live portion?