P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)

[LenexatoKCMO]

Man you guys are eager to give Cordish a free pass and just take their whining at face value.  Developers have often proven that it is indeed possible to recruit retailers to unproven areas with low density residential.  Did West Wyco somehow have a more proven trackrecord and more residential density than DTKC when RED managed to fill their retail?  Hell, go look at past Cordish projects - were DT Louisville or bombed-out inner Baltimore some sort of meccas of proven retail success and high income residential rooftops?  Retail development is all about being in the NEXT hot area - not yesterday's hot area.  Cordish just apparently did a shitty job of convincing retailers that they were building the next hot spot. 

[chrizow]

4th street live doesn't exactly have great retail.  they do have a Borders, though. 

[Highlander]

Retail development is all about being in the NEXT hot area - not yesterday's hot area.  Cordish just apparently did a shitty job of convincing retailers that they were building the next hot spot. 

I think Cordish underestimated the battle they were going to have in a metro that hasn't exactly warmed to its urban core for the last 40 years.  I think the problem with attracting retail is more endemic to KC than it is the lack of Cordish's ability to attract them.  They have managed to pull in retail to their other developments.  KC is really unique in the overwhelming dominance of the burbs in so many different aspects of the economy. 

Restaurant and bars are always going to be drawn to the allure of events and conventions and critical mass but retail is a different story.  There have been several failed attempts at establishing retail downtown in the last 30 years all of which have essentially failed with the exception of Crown Center.  The Town Plaza and Garth Brothers were good examples of failure.  I can understand the reticence of retailers, the frustration of downtowners, and the lack of success by Cordish; unfortunately it's typical of KC for the last 40 years.       

[Midtownkid]

The Town Plaza and Garth Brothers were good examples of failure.       

Town Pavilion?

[trailerkid]

Man you guys are eager to give Cordish a free pass and just take their whining at face value.  Developers have often proven that it is indeed possible to recruit retailers to unproven areas with low density residential.  Did West Wyco somehow have a more proven trackrecord and more residential density than DTKC when RED managed to fill their retail?  Hell, go look at past Cordish projects - were DT Louisville or bombed-out inner Baltimore some sort of meccas of proven retail success and high income residential rooftops?  Retail development is all about being in the NEXT hot area - not yesterday's hot area.  Cordish just apparently did a shitty job of convincing retailers that they were building the next hot spot. 

Do you read the news? Legends is emptying out. Moronic example.

Pretty much the only retail Cordish worked with on those mentioned developments was B&N and Borders. Look it up.

[LenexatoKCMO]

Do you read the news? Legends is emptying out. Moronic example. 

Once again - we are talking about pre-recession leasing performance, not post.  Regardless, it still has ten times or more retailers than P&L

Pretty much the only retail Cordish worked with on those mentioned developments was B&N and Borders. Look it up.

Best Buy, Filenes, CVS - I guess those are too trivial to count. 

[trailerkid]

Once again - we are talking about pre-recession leasing performance, not post.  Regardless, it still has ten times or more retailers than P&L

Best Buy, Filenes, CVS - I guess those are too trivial to count. 

Legends is probably 10X the size of the P+L retail. Again, nice example. Let's compare the most exurban shopping center ever built in the Midwest (which is beginning to flop) with a retail block in a dead downtown that hasn't opened yet. 

They have Filene's, Best Buy and CVS in their entertainment districts that you referenced? They have a CVS in Louisville, but can you point me to where in the Power Plant area that Cordish leases is that Filene's (which doesn't even have stores in this part of the country) + Best Buy are located? Thanks...

God, I hope they land a CVS to appease you. Maybe a Foot Locker would be next so they can give back what they offered in other developments!

This is just dumb...

[GRID]

I don't think that block where Best Buy is was developed by Cordish.

[trailerkid]

I don't think that block where Best Buy is was developed by Cordish.

Everyone on here just pulls shit out of their ass. Weren't you aware?

[LenexatoKCMO]

Legends is probably 10X the size of the P+L retail. Again, nice example. Let's compare the most exurban shopping center ever built in the Midwest (which is beginning to flop) with a retail block in a dead downtown that hasn't opened yet. 

That was the ENTIRE point.  People are excusing Cordish's performance on the grounds that it was an "unproven area" with little residential - my mention of Legends was as an example that developers do indeed manage to build retail developments in unproven areas with few rooftops.  Are you trying to claim that West Wyco was some sort of proven retail market surrounded with dense, high end demographic residential when Legends went in? 

As to it not being "opened yet" - are you kidding?  The damn thing has been built about a year - do you think their plan was just to let it sit vacant for a year before 'opening it'?  Clearly they shit the bed on leasing it a LONG, LONG time ago.  I am glad you are satisfied with their performance and the empty block though. 

[GRID]

Lockwood Place actually has an interesting history.  It was built with tax incentives, much like the P&L district and was 100% spec.  They have had their share of problems and that is in a city with far more downtown pedestrian and tourism activity than KC.  It's not a cordish project.

http://www.davidsbrown.com/commercial/c ... place.html

http://baltimore.bizjournals.com/baltim ... st=s_cn_hl

[KCPowercat]

Are we really comparing these two?  I promise you western wyco and its underserved surrounding residents have 20x the demo numbers as downtown.

It is much easier to convince a retailer to build in the burbs here than downtown, is this reallyu groundbreaking???

These comparisons are silly and really do nothing to proving any point.

[trailerkid]

As to it not being "opened yet" - are you kidding?  The damn thing has been built about a year - do you think their plan was just to let it sit vacant for a year before 'opening it'?  Clearly they shit the bed on leasing it a LONG, LONG time ago.  I am glad you are satisfied with their performance and the empty block though. 

1. do you honestly believe they cannot land foot locker, dress barn, tj maxx, best buy and whatever else you are suggesting for the area? cordish has the city by the balls with the retail so that's probably why they're just waiting to assemble whatever kind of mix they desire to complement what they've built on the east end. throwing a bunch of shit in that space is certainly "the kc way" but i don't see the rush from cordish's perspective. i can see why the city is pissed, but the contract protects cordish and they're going to take their time to get the best product in there.

2. name names of what retail should go in there. give me 5-10 names...

[LenexatoKCMO]

1. do you honestly believe they cannot land foot locker, dress barn, tj maxx, best buy and whatever else you are suggesting for the area? cordish has the city by the balls with the retail so that's probably why they're just waiting to assemble whatever kind of mix they desire to complement what they've built on the east end. throwing a bunch of shit in that space is certainly "the kc way" but i don't see the rush from cordish's perspective. i can see why the city is pissed, but the contract protects cordish and they're going to take their time to get the best product in there.

Yeah because JABanks and a GNC makes it really clear that they are holding out for only the highest brow, most exclusive options.  I am sure they have been spending the last few years turning away "lesser", unworthy tennants by the score.  &&&&

[trailerkid]

Yeah because JABanks and a GNC makes it really clear that they are holding out for only the highest brow, most exclusive options.  I am sure they have been spending the last few years turning away "lesser", unworthy tennants by the score.  &&&&

Jos A Bank is def serving tourists and office workers and everything around the grocery is local, neighborhood use (e.g. T-Mobile, Savvy, GNC). Remember, we are talking about the retail block. The neighborhood use block is mostly full.

Name names. What else besides Filene's Basement and CVS would appease you? 

[KCPowercat]

I am pretty sure the horse is dead.

[PumpkinStalker]

I am pretty sure the horse is dead.

[LenexatoKCMO]

Name names. What else besides Filene's Basement and CVS would appease you? 

I don't give two shits about Filene's Basement, CVS, or any other specific retailer for that matter.  What I do care about is the NOTHING that was delivered and the tax dollars that are going to have to be spent to prop up that failure.  

[trailerkid]

I don't give two shits about Filene's Basement, CVS, or any other specific retailer for that matter.  What I do care about is the NOTHING that was delivered and the tax dollars that are going to have to be spent to prop up that failure.  

What would you like to see delivered? 5-10 names.

Cordish was smart to sign that contract. The city wasn't, but will win overall. That empty block is the least of this city's problems and it's joke people like you can't see the bigger picture of the transformation.

I'm particularly glad the space doesn't look like crappy big box or applebee's, but you can't please everyone I guess.

[KCPowercat]

...This isn't the last year the city can get tax revenues from that block, right?  Let's take a little longer term view.