P&L district attitude rant

[chrizow]

think if all the time, energy, resources, etc. the city has put into the p+l was placed into providing incentives, infrastructure improvements, grants, etc to foster the local, grassroots movements that have reclaimed downtown for over a decade.  the folks who worked hard and took huge risks on downtown - who paved the way for there even to be interest in a downtown entertainment district - are routinely fucked by the city while the city mounts a herculean effort to grease the skids for a billion-dollar out of town company.  surely this is not too cynical to observe?

[kcmetro]

Places where the cocktail waitreses wear bikinis and chaps are clearly directed at a different crowd. 

Hetero men and lesbian women? 

[KCPowercat]

I see what you are saying. I guess I just like both so it doesn't make as much sense why one has to hate the other and wish it never was there?  All the while making up rude nicknames for those who do go there.

I am in no way saying everybody should love going to the p&l but I don't see the need to discount the whole thing. It is doing great things in opening peoples eyes to downtown kc. This is what most of us have always wanted.

[KCPowercat]

Chriz. I think that valid but is a different angle than my drunken rant was taking.

I am all ears to hear your proposal for helping out those pioneers. Things like freezing their property tax in thr xroads was positive.

[staubio]

My biggest issue is that many people's scope of "downtown" is the district. Even in this thread, people said "if you don't like it, go to Westport!" Well, you could go to one of downtown's many alternatives, many of which have been open for years and were taking a risk to be that way.

I'm happy to have the district even though it isn't for me. I get it. We could have done much, much better, but I'll take it. I just think that it is important to continue to position the district as a unique and small part of downtown and continue to develop around it. It is bound to shake things up in the short term but I'm waiting for new eyes peering on all parts of downtown.

[LenexatoKCMO]

I see what you are saying. I guess I just like both so it doesn't make as much sense why one has to hate the other and wish it never was there?  All the while making up rude nicknames for those who do go there.

I am in no way saying everybody should love going to the p&l but I don't see the need to discount the whole thing. It is doing great things in opening peoples eyes to downtown kc. This is what most of us have always wanted.

I think you may be pretty rare in crossing the gap.  I think a lot of people that enjoy the more alternative (for lack of a better word) scene just really aren't comfortable around a crowd where folks use artificial tanning and wear designer jeans and all the other stereotypes you allude to.  I know my GF would never appreciate being taken to a bar where the staff is dressed in bikinis.  In many ways the atmosphere, attitude, and experience couldn't be more polar opposites.  Perhaps its unfair, but some folks just find aspects of that scene (in the larger than P&L sense) to be unpleasant, if not down right offensive. 

[chrizow]

Perhaps its unfair, but some folks just find aspects of that scene (in the larger than P&L sense) to be unpleasant, if not down right offensive. 

this is true, though what is more offensive to me is the political side of it.  the city makes life hell for the downtown pioneers that have put their hearts and livelihoods into their little corners of downtown, only to have the same city turn around and usher in a corporate, subsidized plastic nightclub district.  Cordish gets tax subsidies and millions of dollars for their $850,000,000 district while the original pioneers have their taxes increase 300%.  Cordish gets parking garages, streetscaping, etc. while the pioneers have crumbling sidewalks and 1950s-era parking ordinances. 

the fact that i think the p+l is lame and that the scene is ridiculous only heightens the above.

[kcmetro]

The only thing I find offensive about the P&L are the prices and crowds.  I guess I might be all about it if I was 21 or 22, but now that I'm 27, it's a little too much for me to do on a regular basis.  The best time I had at the P&L, and probably will have there, was during the Big 12 tourney.  It was the perfect setting for that.

[KCPowercat]

That political side happens in every city in america. The big sexy project gets the attention. Again, not really what I was aiming for. Whatever. Not everybody enjoyed downtown the way it was. We now have a broader appeal which benefits the entire downtown in my opinion. The pioneers are helped by the p&l.

maybe I am having a let's all get along moment. Its not your scene, cool. wish it was never created? Shortsighted.

[chrizow]

The pioneers are helped by the p&l.

how?

[KCPowercat]

Rising tide raises all ships. Increased traffic, move people moving downtown, higher rental rates for landlords, spin off business, higher property vaues, infrastructure upgrades, more city hall attention (police, etc). To name a few.

[Maitre D]

Well Powercat, I"m not happy that you and yours voted to kill DT baseball.  So there.



As for P&L, I went quite a bit early on this Spring but not much this summer.  It was packed (which is GOOD) and I felt like I had to wait in lines to get into any of the bars.  Not gonna do that.



I don't live DT so I can't realistically go there on weeknites.  Too far from my place.  Agredd with Metro, it's really great during events (Concerts, Big 12, KU games are when I'm down there with regularity)

[KCPowercat]

I am not sure where this was miscommunicated but in no way am I ranting about people not going to the p&l or it not being their thing.

My rant is all focused on what I believe to be shortsighted disgust for the district, what it does for downtown, and the dissing of people that do enjoy it.

Md and metro are perfect examples of what I see as the major p&l benefit. I am guessing there is no way either of them ventured to downtown bars before the p&l, now they do come downtown, maybe not every weekend, but it is now an option for them and the circle of friends. This is a huge positive. Then we have businesses wanting to move back downtown (eg mcneel) and conventions wanting to book kc again. Huge advantages that were much less likely w/o the p&l.

I don't care if you love or hate going out there but to say downtown was better without it is not looking at the whole picture.

I also find the classifications people here are putting on p&l customers to be rude and hypocritical considering what many stereotypes many of us have faced being "urban dwellers" and the stereotypes people put on that lifestyle.

I guess I am done debating this as my true reasoning doesn't seem to be getting through.

[GRID]

I think the problem is downtown has not bounced back enough to support the entire urban package.  We are not Denver or Portland.

I don't think anybody would think twice about having a canned district full suburbanites and tourists eating at chain places if we had a more vibrant city that surrounded it.

On a grand scale, the P&L district should simply be few blocks of a much greater district of dozens of blocks.

We are not there yet.  I'm not sure when we will get there.

But till then, the P&L district has done more for downtown that Tanners or the Peanut.

Look at the dirt patch next to Busch stadium and then be glad Cordish was able to pull this off in KC, especially in this economy.

Downtown KC before Sprint/P&L was a total embarrassment.  I never want to go back to that.

I just hope we can grow downtown so that the P&L "compliments" other entertainment and dining options rather than "dominates" them.

The only way that’s going to happen is to double the residents and office workers.  That’s the only way.

[bobbyhawks]

The biggest problem with the P&L (and benefit for Cordish) is that it is sequestered in its own little nook of downtown, and with a business district to the North, a highway to the South, a giant Arena to the East, and a huge convention center to the West, there is little room for local business to encroach or capitalize on the spillage from the people waiting in lines.  I doubt most even have a clue that Willie's is across the highway, or know much about other surrounding businesses, but there really are few concentrations of quality establishments close by. 

If someone were smart enough, they would build a free or $2 always parking garage where the KC Star surface lot is and fill in Grand South of the highway.  Sprint Center patrons would learn about it quickly and be forced to see the less crowded, local flair places that exist and can exist along Grand.  Also, covering the highway would make a giant difference.  As of now, there is a reason why those storefronts South of Truman are vacant (along with some unrealistic lease prices).  If you don't already know about a specific place in that area or live nearby, I fail to see why you would think to take a pleasant stroll down Grand, or even many of the surrounding streets for anything. 

The X-roads is so spread out and segmented that it does not lend itself to discovery near as much as it should, but rather to similar destination shopping/eating you see in the burbs.  Hate to beat a dead horse, but the surface lots are a big reason, and that is why the P&L is successful.  So many options in one place, and they are near impossible to miss.  I don't think one can complain about a smart business plan when local entrepreneurs have lacked the ability to band together in much besides some art galleries.  I personally love the X-roads, but I work nearby and know where to go.  Most people have no clue, and bar hopping the area consists of reasonably lengthy 3-6 block walks (that's not how Beale Street or the French Quarter or 6th Street became famous).  I understand that many don't want that type of atmosphere because they loathe the meatheads that will naturally show up, but that is part of making money, and part of drawing people.  Now, if the community wants a cool/hip area, it is their responsibility to create it, not to complain about other people having fun.

[Midtownkid]

Well, these things take time.  I think people are getting impatient.  Grand, south of the district is actually developing quite nicely.  It takes a long time for developers to be sure the P+L is successful (they should know by now, though), then they have to see what is available, then they have to find the right building for the right price, then hire architects, then get plans made and approved, then find tenants, and on and on.  The district has only been partially open for ONE YEAR.  Give downtown some time.  Progress is def being made, and it will continue...especially if/when the economy bounces back.

As far as people hating the patrons in the P+L and stereotyping them...it's dumb but it happens.  Some may be jealous of the 'rich' and 'muscular' guys with their 'hot and cheap' girlfriends because they are lame and can't get any.  Others may see themselves as more indie and hate all that is main stream...there are plenty of places for them to go, still.  Others just love to complain about anything.  Anyway, almost everyone stereotypes the people that live or hangout somewhere.  I hate Joco and a certain image comes to mind when I think of it, but not everyone there is really the same.  So all the complainers just have to be ignored.  The noise they make will not kill the district, and hopefully won't even hurt it.  You just have to develop a thick skin towards them.

[chrizow]

Some may be jealous of the 'rich' and 'muscular' guys with their 'hot and cheap' girlfriends because they are lame and can't get any.

i wish this were the primary demographic at the P+L.  at least i could look at something (mock the guys, ogle the ladies). 

[rxlexi]

Grid, excellent post.  P&L can be so jarring right now in that it is both so new, and the only major activity generator in the area.  It turned downtown on (to use their marketing slogan ) overnight, without the years of additional development or grassroots growth that so often occurs around such districts.  If the Xroads had it's shit together and had development been confined to certain nodes, it could easily market itself as the hip alternative to the P&L scene just across the now well-lit, attractive highway bridges.

  Chriz, I suppose in an ideal what-if scenario, it's exciting to imagine a major city backed, incentivized grassroots scene in the south loop.  However, I believe something along the lines of P&L was required; this is here for major events (the Big 12, a diverse array of SC shows, etc.), to drive convention traffic, and to appeal to the largest amount of people possible, especially subrubanites.  All three things for which grassroots devo, like that in the Xroads, isn't well-suited.  The city was wise, IMO, to bring in a company like Cordish in all of their evil, shiny plastic ways, because they build things that people love, garaunteed.   

This was an $850 mil. project, as you noted, and there was no way that money was going to be invested without dramatically limiting risks; unfortunately, subsidizing a bunch of local bars and galleries and such as not how you do that.  DT needs to be the big flashy fun place for everybody, not the capital of KC hipsterdom, and I think P&L does a great job (clearly) of appealing to the masses.  There is so much cool old city left to foster the other kinds of stuff; downtown desperately needed this, despite a few small snafus here or there. 

And I can easily stand up say that I'm one of the 'tweeners...I don't like P&L regularly, mainly on weekends (and can take great pleasure in the name calling), but can absolutely have a blast there, from people watching to bourbon flights at MM to the mahi mahi wrap at Gordon B to O'Fallon Porters at Flying Saucer.  Weeknights, Thurs. in particular, are by far the best.  And in fact, I was one of those folks walking from P&L last night, after checking out the Midland and eating, across 670 thru the Xroads, all the way down to 20th and Main (Michael Smith) and back to my car on Baltimore and 670.  I was amazed that I managed to see many other peeps out there also, walking around the edges of P&L, the Xroads, in and out of bars and restaurants.  That is why P&L is and will be great for downtown...greater DT provides something for everybody, and spin-off activity has and will be generated.

[Highlander]

While KC had organic growth, the pace was agonizingly slow and the redevelopment so spread out that nothing like a concentrated critical mass was developing anywhere.  A bigger problem was that the organic growth was almost entirely utilizing pre-existing building stock so it was really limited in what it was going to ultimately achieve without new construction.  There was no way organic growth was going to fill in the gap created by surface parking in the south loop.  

Sprint Arena would have been pointless without the P&L District, we would have been only slightly better off than we were in the Kemper days in terms of making KC a draw for national and regional events.   I just don't see how we could have ever infilled an area that large that quickly without the experience and organizational skills of a company like Cordish.  I think they have done great.

I am not sorry DT, or a few blocks of it, doesn't have the "gritty" side to it that so many here seem to like.  I am happy to replace the parking desert with a few blocks that actually have a vibe even if the patrons are generally considered to be undermenschen.  All the same spots in the crossroads and River Market are pretty much still available to anybody who prefers to patronize them over bars like the Mosaic etc...   While I was in KC, I did not step foot in any of the bars ringing the Live Area other than Raglan Road and I also visited the Flying Saucer on several occasions, but I still enjoyed seeing people come downtown in large numbers and discover something new about the city.  Go down there enough and you are bound to become curious about the Liberty Memorial, Union Station etc..

My only criticism is the same as Bobbyhawks, the place is very sequestered which is probably mostly a result of fate (large parking lots, one pre-existing, separate the area from the remainder of downtown) and it does not lend itself to a spillover effect in downtown, other than just inceasing the exposure of the downtown area to a heretofore unaccustomed public.

[LindseyLohan]

I'm sure the feeling I have towards P&L is very similar to (maybe milder) the feeling someone has when their perfect 50 year old home with 10 acres in Johnson County is taken from them to build a Wal-Mart.

I have been negatively impacted for the benefit of large corporations and "nightlife" debauchery. In the end, these are the longterm resident's tax dollars working for someone else.