P&L district attitude rant

[KCPowercat]

OK rant time.  It is amazing to me that in a short 7 months since the P&L opened, the general popular opinion of this site and many of my friends as turned sharply against the P&L district.  Just today I have read about how people wish the P&L was never built and we just had the grocery store, Midland, etc....and how people liked downtown so much more before the P&L.  Then more hateful comments against those that attend bars and events at the P&L.

Is this a joke?  Why is there so much hate and stereotyping of people who go out at the P&L?  I go there quite a bit (as well as other areas and bars/restaurants) and I see a very eclectic grouping of people, not just groups of people that some label as "frat guys" and "sorority girls" or other more negative spins on these terms (I'll get to those terms in a second).  Does anybody remember the days of a downtown dominated by Sokkie's, surface parking lots, and sidewalks that rolled up at 5pm?  We now have people WANTING to move, play, and work downtown and the very people that wanted this type of behavior are turning their nose up at the P&L development and demonizing the people that go there.  This is EXACTLY what this metro has been missing for decades...a central entertainment district for us to build around, the majority of us WANTED this and were excited to see it come.....in the past we've had the Plaza and Westport trying to stand as supplements and we all know how poorly those areas are for that purpose.  We now have a central area that all areas of the metro are flocking too every night and the majority of this site is saying they wish it never happened?  Again, this has to be a joke?  WTF? 

I've lived downtown for over 6 years now....I probably didn't live down here during the worst of the worst  but before that I lived on the plaza (and my whole life other areas of this metro) and I couldn't get people to go downtown to save their lives for ANYTHING...we would go to JOhn's deck once in a blue moon because of the deck...and stare out at all the abandoned buildings....I would explain to my friends how those buildings would be filled with condos and apartments...I was met with chuckles.  Within the 6 years of being down here, I've seen the transformation and the addition of residents...I've heard the attitudes change....all things this site hoped would happen when this site/forum started 8? years ago....now people want to come downtown and the very people who were hoping and dreaming of this are abandoning it because people unlike yourselves are also enjoying it? 

I understand that every bar in the P&L might not be your scene, personally I think we were missing a group of high energy fun bars but i digress.....think about it....those of us who loved downtown already had our scene downtown...the problem was not enough people had the attraction to downtown...now we have that broader appeal for those who previously turned their noses at downtown and we still have many of our favorites.....so we are gaining that critical mass of people living and playing downtown that we wouldn't have achieved with the Bulldogs, Quaffs, Grinders of the world.  Why do we have to knock down other places and their patrons...can't we see the big picture of what this all means for downtown?  The old saying goes, a rising tide raises all ships.

Now back to the negative terms people are using towards those that they think are the only ones enjoying the P&L.  So some of these people might not be your cliche or people you enjoy hanging out with so you discount them and determine them to be bad people because they wear striped shirts and short dresses?  How freaking hypocritical can we get?  This is the site that started fighting the negative stereotypes of urban living and how inaccurate people's assumptions were...and now we are labeling people based on nothing but their clothing and how you saw some people wearing those same clothes act a few times?

I don't know where I'm going with all this and I'm sure this is making little sense, it just seems the very thing many people were hoping for is now developing and just as soon as it gets here, we're abandoning it because people are also enjoying it....this is a small physical piece of downtwon but has huge impact to the entire downtown...people are watching and listening to people just like us as the "urban pioneers" and turning up our nose at one of our biggest investments ever do nothing but harm....great, you don't like Angels Rock Bar...wonderful, don't go there...but to wish the whole district wasn't there seems shortsighted to say the least.  Boring, lazy downtown (this is not a bedroom community) was not fun and it was not representative of our great metro area.  Let's continue to grow downtown in and around the P&L, not try and talk down about it because it sounds like the cool thing to do around a Grinders table.

That's it.

[FangKC]

I think the whole P&L District is groovy and I'm glad it and the Sprint Center were built.

I'm also glad that the Midland and Mainstreet theaters are getting renovated, and the President, Aladdin hotels were as well.

I went to the Midland Theater open house tonight and stared out the upstairs windows in the event room that is available for rent on the top floor. It was neat to look out and see buildings, lights, cars, and people on the streets for the first time since I've lived here.

I don't miss the vacant lots and Soakies retail establishments.  Downtown is starting to become integrated again, and I like that.  Sure, I have things I would criticize about how it was done. Design elements and such. But overall, I think it's the best thing to happen to downtown in a long time, and I just hope it keeps going.

[GRID]

KCPowercat

[chrizow]

all i was saying was that it would have been cool if, by the strength of grassroots development downtown, a grocery, arena, reno-ed midland would have happened.  i am happy that the p+l is there, but surely you can't blame me for being a little jaded that such a cool, historic city had to depend on a nightlife shopping mall cut/pasted into downtown by baltimore developers, with the political and financial assistance of the city, to "save" it?  i might be snarky about the scene at the p+l, but that's just me joking around.  mostly i dislike the p+l given the history, finances, politics, etc.   

[AllThingsKC]

I absolutely 100% agree, KCPowercat!!!

I moved downtown 3 1/2 years ago.  When I told people where I lived then, they would always say something like "Don't get shot" or "I'm sorry to hear that."  They would ALWAYS say something like this!

Now, when I tell people that I live downtown, they always say something like, "WOW!  Are you close to the P&L District/Sprint Center?"  or "WOW!  Downtown has really improved, hasn't it?"  or "Yeah, I'm looking into moving downtown soon.  It seems exciting."

It's like the suburbanites impression of downtown has done a complete 180 since the P&L District opened.

In fact, my friends of WARRENSBURG are always talking about the P&L Distirct.  They take the 1-hour drive at least once a week.

I know there have been a few "farm boy" complaints about parking, etc.  But, I never thought that some downtowners would say they liked downtown BEFORE the P&L District while most suburbanites said they liked downtown AFTER the P&L District. 

[kuslamb]

KCPowercat

I agree with everything you said.  Yes, downtown is not perfect.  No, we could not save every building that at one time was important to the downtown, but progess often seems to take this. 

Anywho, the wine and dinner was great @ Lill's tonight.  For those who do not like the corporate bad boys in the P&L, Lill's is great.

[KCPowercat]

all i was saying was that it would have been cool if, by the strength of grassroots development downtown, a grocery, arena, reno-ed midland would have happened.  i am happy that the p+l is there, but surely you can't blame me for being a little jaded that such a cool, historic city had to depend on a nightlife shopping mall cut/pasted into downtown by baltimore developers, with the political and financial assistance of the city, to "save" it?  i might be snarky about the scene at the p+l, but that's just me joking around.  mostly i dislike the p+l given the history, finances, politics, etc.   

while your comments and others may have set me off, it's far from just one thing.  Alot of this comes from my friends too....

history, finances, politics?  I"m not getting at all while that would jade you on the P&L....because they got tax breaks?  So you hate all tax breaks now?  Not following there.

So one block is a corporate made "cut and paste" bar development and that takes away from the big picture of what this means overall to downtown and makes it alright to talk down about people that go there? 

Whatever...I don't know...just seems this majority of this site and people I know who wanted this have now turned against it, and I'm not getting why.

[K.C.Highrise]

My drunken rant. Chill out, it's hell of a lot better than what it was.

[ComandanteCero]

I think from the beginning i've had the attitude that this is a necessary evil, a canned district.  The necessity doesn't it make it less evil, nor does the evil make it less necessary.  There needed to be a cohesive destination for average folks, and that's what this accomplished.  This kind of thing was never targeted towards me, and I knew that from the start.  This was just part of the overall plan for downtown, which I figure as being the following, ultimately leading to a true and dynamic urban center for KC:

1) Give average folks a destination downtown

Check:  Sprint Center/P-L District combo has done that relatively nicely

2) Building on exposure granted by (1) boost demand for living downtown

Er..:  The real estate market is shit right now, but I feel pretty optimistic about when things finally start picking up (circa 2010?)

3) Building on (1) and (2) boost demand for retail and entertainment downtown

Er...:  With the P/L district absorbing most of the additional visitor dollars that have come downtown, we'll have to wait for more residents to continue expanding entertainment/retail options.  It seems like demand for entertainment options downtown is being met pretty well.

4)  Building on (2) and (3) boost demand for visiting and living downtown, continuing an ever more positive urbanist cycle.  EVEN THOUGH IT'S NOT GEARED TOWARDS ME.

Here's the thing.  I don't shop or eat at the Plaza, but I enjoy people watching and building watching.  In the same way, I hope that one day downtown will be a dynamic urban center that I can visit and stroll through and partake of the energy and ebb and flow that these places offer.  This has little to do with shopping and eating for me (although if there were an explosion of cheap awesome ethnic food i'd be all over that too).

[LindseyLohan]

I thought the power and light district was good for us and still do. But now I miss the grit. I liked the lack of attention downtown. I liked being able to walk around feeling like I was the only thing alive after 6:00pm. Cracked sidewalks and dormant buildings were more interesting than a dressed up strip mall.

I am just very disappointed in what $800 million got us. A few resteraunts, superficial bars, and a bowling alley. My expectations were much higher.

It could also be related to me now having a kid, and I envy everyone that gets to enjoy it freely.

My best memories of downtown involve me inviting my suburban friends to my loft in Soho 4-5 years ago. We would stumble around to all the dives and act like complete idiotic assholes. There was no one watching us, because there was no one around...

Which brings up another aggravating thing, apartment rental has skyrocketed if it hasn't been turned into a condo already. It's not cheaper than JOCO anymore...Just because we built some bars...

And all those stripped shirts make me want to kick a puppy....&&&&&& (Hopefully you find my reasons a little deeper than that, even though you may disagree)

[rxlexi]

I enjoyed the rant, Powercat.  I too have grown weary of the super anti-P&L crowd.  No doubt, it is what it is, and thankfully the city is no worse off in the entertainment/nightlife arena for it (please do not tell me the few bars that have closed were beloved KC night spots).  Has everyone failed to realize that with these tax breaks and this big annoying (and sometimes downright classless) developer has come a real city, overnight and as promised?  

The Sprint Center/P&L (pre-build speculation, as well) transformation has literally turned downtown from a dead zone (the loop, at least) into the beating heart of metro nightlife.  In one fell swoop, it has made downtown cool amongst the mainstream folks, given us a gorgeous arena that brings all kinds of activity, and, fingers crossed, a pro-tenant (fingers crossed really hard at this point), brought in a large grocery store, and restored our historic theaters and added another new downtown stage and large office HQ.  Not to mention that 360 architects did a reasonable job making a place that simultaneously feels loud and fun and special and blends in pretty well contextually downtown.  And people LOVE it.  I LOVE it, if only for that alone (and a smattering of bars I actually quite enjoy).  

Anyone that has an urbanist streak in this city must appreciate the high-level activity visibile downtown all the time now, right?  For this sea-change in attitudes towards downtown and activity level to happen overnight is pretty unprecedented, and it would have been extremely difficult to make happen (if not feakin' impossible in KC at the time) without the backing of big players like Cordish and AEG.  They do what they do, well.  Westport and 31st and 39th et al will still gladly accept your money, so there's no need for the haters to step foot into the Live block...but do respect the fact that this has been a massively powerful positive boost for downtown, and will continue to be.  

I think most of us on the site get that, I'm not really refering to folks here; rather, I've had some experiences with cooler-than-thou kids that swear hatred for the P&L up and down without realizing that getting into the heart and pocket book of the average suburban Joe, voluntarily and with great pleasure, is a major milestone for KCMO.

[rxlexi]

I liked being able to walk around feeling like I was the only thing alive after 6:00pm. Cracked sidewalks and dormant buildings were more interesting than a dressed up strip mall.

  Oh, don't worry, there are plenty of other parts of town where this is still very, very possible.  Some would even say it could be too easy.

  I do see your point re: apartment rental though, we certainly do need a lot more lower-rent options.  They'd be snapped up quick, if we could get them built/rehabbed/whatever.

[DaveKCMO]

here's my take on what many of you might perceive as my own anti-P+L attitude:

I TRIED IT AND DIDN'T LIKE IT.

i went to every single restaurant multiple times, followed construction with the rest of the faithful... then was generally let down by the food+service quality, uninspired entertainment, and implementation issues. oh, and i was already a snob, so this stance comes easy.

then the final nails in the coffin were the cobwebs collecting along main and baltimore, then the self-righteousness of cordish poking their nose in the light rail debate months after a consensus has been reached in the community.

so, will they be successful without me? if the demographics remain consistent, no doubt they will continue to rake in the dough. regardless, i'm far more interested in the locally-produced halo around the district and have made those spots my primary hangouts (czar bar, JP, azul, nara, etc.).

[KCPowercat]

Nobody ever suggested everybody had to like going there. That had nothing to do with my rant.

[DaveKCMO]

Nobody ever suggested everybody had to like going there. That had nothing to do with my rant.

... and i wasn't even drunk!

[NDTeve]

Damned if you do...Damned if you don't. Rather be on the damned if you do side in this case.

[BEERMAN]

Let's not forget that since the opening of the P&L the economy has been in a downward spiral.  I think Cordish has done an incredible job given the circumstances.

In 5 years, you will find that some of the trendy (Angel's Rock Bar) places will be replaced with better concepts.  What we have now is a first step toward a better and bigger downtown.  Just think about the venues we have now.  The Midland Theatre, Sprint Center, PAC, Uptown Theater and the Live Music Venue will draw people for decades to visit and live.  If I were fresh out of college, moving back to KC, I wouldn't hesitate for a second moving downtown (if I could find a place).

I would suggest everyone take a deep breath and be realistic about how much KC can improve in a years time.  Revitalization will take decades, so enjoy the ride.

[Midtownkid]

I thought the power and light district was good for us and still do. But now I miss the grit. I liked the lack of attention downtown. I liked being able to walk around feeling like I was the only thing alive after 6:00pm. Cracked sidewalks and dormant buildings were more interesting than a dressed up strip mall.

You can always get a place in the West Bottoms...it's still very empty and 'edgy.'

i went to every single restaurant multiple times, followed construction with the rest of the faithful... then was generally let down by the food+service quality, uninspired entertainment, and implementation issues. oh, and i was already a snob, so this stance comes easy.

then the final nails in the coffin were the cobwebs collecting along main and baltimore, then the self-righteousness of cordish poking their nose in the light rail debate months after a consensus has been reached in the community.

Will you be happy when they finally get around to opening some designer stores down there like a Barny's CO-OP?  hehe

[DaveKCMO]

Will you be happy when they finally get around to opening some designer stores down there like a Barny's CO-OP?  hehe

yes. 

[LenexatoKCMO]

KCP - I think a little friction was inevitable.  Many of the folk who have been established in the greater DT area were probably attracted by the gritty, arty, alternative vibe and establishments that catered to them.  It seems perfectly understandable that many of these folks wouldn't necessarily be attracted to glitzy chain bars and the crowds they attract.  Why expect that people who dig the Brick, Peanut, and Grinders to suddenly like a place like McFaddens or Shark Bar?  Places where the cocktail waitreses wear bikinis and chaps are clearly directed at a different crowd.  Sure its a net positive that this different crowd has come DT - the more the merrier.  But that doesn't mean I have to personally like the new places.  Frankly I am rather happy that Cordish didn't really attempt to put in any concepts (save perhaps Flying Saucer) that would appeal to the edgier, more alternative DT crowd - it would rather suck if they were putting in places that were likely to draw away the Grinder, Brick, Peanut, etc. crowd.