P&L district attitude rant

[trailerkid]

The same people hating on the P+L district AFTER it opens are also the same crowd quietly disassociating with the Squid and the Funk AFTER telling everyone they were going to save Kansas City from evil. To this crowd, the P+L would be a perfect and a good investment if it catered to their taste. Because KC Live! is a mid-brow cocktail zone appealing to the OP demo...it is a bad investment. If it catered to mean/bahua/chrizow's or even my less sophisticated tastes it would be a smashing success-- but EMPTY most evenings.

I also don't get how people can diss/patronize the area concurrently. The P+L seems economically successful for Cordish as well as the city without you. Hang out in the Paseo West/East Village/North Loop areas if you want to experience the good old south loop.

Everyone does realize that the P+L District used to be a 6+ block sea of blighted parking lots, right? And we are talking about Kansas City and its block after block after block of urban decay? Can someone dig out the pictures of the dilapidated Empire, dilapidated Prez, the old UMB, Skoakies, vacant buildings, the parking lots? I'm sorry we didn't build a giant KC originals restaurant block with an American Apparel, DWR and a Knitting Factory outpost, but that sounds pretty lame too IMHO.

Cordish gets tax subsidies and millions of dollars for their $850,000,000 district while the original pioneers have their taxes increase 300%.  Cordish gets parking garages, streetscaping, etc. while the pioneers have crumbling sidewalks and 1950s-era parking ordinances. 

Were you complaining about ANY of these factors pre-P+L opening? I did create a thread in 2003 outlining some basic issues with the development style we were getting, but I don't remember any specific posts with people reacting against the city financing in the years leading up to approval/construction-- only after the crowds start to show.

[bahua]

Wasn't it pretty obvious from the beginning what the P&L was going to be? Wasn't it pretty obvious from the beginning that its developers were going to get unfair preferential treatment? I thought this was all pretty well established. I don't go out there very much(besides the Flying Saucer), but I don't regret it being there at all. It's changed the perception of downtown, and of Kansas City in general. I loved downtown KC before it was there, but I think downtown has gained a level of notoriety that it hasn't had in decades, and I have a hard time deciding that that's a bad thing just because the bars are lame and that the city sold its soul to get it built. The way I see it, the city would have spent the gazillion dollars it didn't have on something else, just as frivolous and flashy, if the P&L hadn't come along.

[chrizow]

Were you complaining about ANY of these factors pre-P+L opening? I did create a thread in 2003 outlining some basic issues with the development style we were getting, but I don't remember any specific posts with people reacting against the city financing in the years leading up to approval/construction-- only after the crowds start to show.

i find your post very strange.  while yes, i do think the p+l is not really my style, that is not the main reason i dislike it.  like i said before, it is just sad that it took a corporate canned district, photoshopped in by an out of town company and subsidized by the city, to make KCMO "legit" in the eyes of many people.  i understand that my views are not reality, but it just would have been nice if similar numbers of people could get excited about what is actually a really interesting, fun city and take notice of all the work local folks have done to energize the city.  95% of P+L-goers have no idea that interest in downtown has been increasing over the past 15 years due to pioneers that are now being squeezed out by taxes, city-subsidized competition, etc. 

the fact i may not have been harping on this in 2005 doesn't mean i can't say it now (though i am pretty sure i said these things back then too).

if the city spent the millions on the burgeoning crossroads/downtown area that it spent wooing and planning for Cordish's development, we could have had a downtown center that is uniquely KCMO.  in the next decade, every large city in america will have a shiny new Cordish downtown. 

people who know and love KCMO understand that it is a large, complex place with a lot to offer.  the fact that people think the p+l is the "personality" of KC or downtown makes me want to puke. 

believe me, i don't want the city to subsidize a Knitting Factory or any other totem to hipsterdom.  however, i would think that, with the right planning, the crossroads/donwntown area could have cultivated into a more vibrant, unique destination.  i'd love to be wrong on this, but i think that the idea of the P+L somehow "helping" local establishments on the periphery will not happen. 

i am not 100% negative on the P+L.  like bahua, i appreciate the notoriety it is bringing downtown and i hope that the presence of the P+L will lead some people to investigate what else exists in our city.  it is just troubling to think that our feeble city govt spent untold sums and resources coddling a corporate district - riding the coattails of the pioneers who made downtown cool again despite ignorance/hostility from the city, no less. 

your insinuation that i am judging the district based on shallow, cooler-than-thou elitism is nauseating and could not be farther from the truth.

[KCPowercat]

If the city dumped millions in the crossroads, you'd now have the same opinion of that I'm thinking.....and actually the city isn't spending money it didn't have before the P&L so that's a little disingenuous as well.

KC would be the only place on earth that something like the P&L didn't help surrounding businesses....let's not look at the short term and the few weak players in the market that went under.  The help to surrounding businesses is more longterm....after the P&L becomes less of the focus as people discover downtown because of the P&L and branch out, some even deciding to live....not to mention more employers looking at downtown.  This is already happening.

[NDTeve]

Or the fact that the PandL will likely spurn places more to your taste. Places that would never had opened had Cordish not brought the foot traffic in the first place.

[chrizow]

^ if that occurs, i will be happy as a clam. 

[KC-wildcat]

if the city spent the millions on the burgeoning crossroads/downtown area that it spent wooing and planning for Cordish's development, we could have had a downtown center that is uniquely KCMO.  in the next decade, every large city in america will have a shiny new Cordish downtown. 

It would have been nice if Kansas Citians had been able to cultivate a home-grown, grass roots district in the cross roads or river market that had the same effect as P&L (in terms of foot traffic and $$$).  But, the reality is, nobody was keeping developers from proposing developments in those areas.  Anybody could have invested the money freely and willingly.  I've lived in Kansas City 25 years watching those areas grow slowly and steadily, but I have yet to see anybody take a leap of faith like Cordish.  Don't get me wrong, I love these dynamic parts of DTKC.  I frequent these bars more than I do the Live Block bars.  But, they simply haven't grown fast enough or attracted enough attention to change the tired, sleepy, lethargic image that had become Kansas City, Missouri. 

And, let's not confuse issues here.  While, x-roads and rivermarket were doing relatively well, everything inside the loop was dead, moribund, desolate.  There may have been a few undiscovered, local joints, but for the most part, the loop was reserved for the local pioneer.  Outsiders were not really welcome or invited.  Barnes realized this and decided a "drastic" change was needed.  A developer who had the ability to invest hundreds of millions of dollars was needed.  Hence, Cordish. 

Again, I don't see anything wrong with P&L, Xroads, and Rivermarket working together to create a dynamic feel DT.  Between those 3, I think there is truly something for everyone.  The entities are not mutually exclusive.  And, let's not forget, P&L is more than just the Live! Block.  It entails condo towers, retail block, Empire renov., Midland renov., Grocery Store, Gym, street scaping.  Not to mention H&R Block.

Lastly, I don't think Barnes and her city planners envisioned P&L as becoming the image of Kansas City.  IMO, Barnes and co. wanted P&L to be the magnet and catalyst for getting DTKC over the hump.  they wanted it to be the driving force behind growth in industry, commerce, and residential.  They wanted it to grow organic development and infill.  It may be a slow process, but I think when the economy begins to turn around, and people have more faith in investment banks, we'll see more of this organic growth.       

[KCMax]

It would have been nice if Kansas Citians had been able to cultivate a home-grown, grass roots district in the cross roads or river market that had the same effect as P&L (in terms of foot traffic and $$$).  But, the reality is, nobody was keeping developers from proposing developments in those areas.  Anybody could have invested the money freely and willingly.       

Unless I'm mistaken, the city wasn't offering the amount of subsidies to invest in the Crossroads as it gave to Cordish.

[chrizow]

Unless I'm mistaken, the city wasn't offering the amount of subsidies to invest in the Crossroads as it gave to Cordish.

the city bent over backwards handing over (admittedly desolate) land and resources to Cordish, while simultaneously significantly increasing taxes on the crossroads pioneers who cultivated support for downtown in the first place.  result:  Cordish gets a carte blanche for their district with shiny new city infrastructure, while the Crossroads folks who are paying their own way still have crumbling sidewalks to show for their 200% tax increases. 

am i really that cynical for pointing this out?! 

[LenexatoKCMO]

am i really that cynical for pointing this out?! 

Yes and no - the devil's advocate would point out that most of those xroads businesses can still only manage to generate any sort of significant traffic one night a month and are still sadly slow the majority of the time, whereas the P&L has generated a near steady stream of business and traffic seven days a week. 

At what cost? - well there is a fair question. 

[KCPowercat]

well the city and state helped Cordish, the county raised taxes on the crossroads....and tax breaks were put into place for some xroads galleries as well....sorry but I don't feel bad for a condo owner or bar/restaurant if their property values and hence taxes increase.

If the crossroads residents don't like their sidewalks, PIAC is available to them to apply for, just like every other neighborhood.  They are also free to tax themselves and form a CID like the loop did to improve their neighborhood.

[bahua]

Cordish's investment in Kansas City was hardly a leap of faith. Expenses, competition, and regulation were reduced to the point that they'd have been crazy not to come. I'm not alleging that the city reduced competition- just that there was very little to begin with.

Cordish got an excellent deal from Kansas City.

[bobbyhawks]

Does anyone have examples of a new downtown development that was locally focused and also successful within year one of completion?  I would think that the P&L is the quickest fix we could ask for downtown.  Anything else would have manifested itself slowly over 5 to 15 years, and only with a powerful driving influence behind it.  We hope we have a company that will try to fill storefronts as long as they are in charge (once complete, and the jury is still out on that one), instead of letting them sit around vacant like much of the crossroads.  It was the "that's not for me so I won't pay for it" attitude that kept KC in the shadows over many years, and I think as with other bigger cities, we need to be happy with things that are successful, yet still try to promote/support the local flavor when they are willing to make an investment in us.

[chrizow]

Does anyone have examples of a new downtown development that was locally focused and also successful within year one of completion?  I would think that the P&L is the quickest fix we could ask for downtown.  Anything else would have manifested itself slowly over 5 to 15 years, and only with a powerful driving influence behind it.  We hope we have a company that will try to fill storefronts as long as they are in charge (once complete, and the jury is still out on that one), instead of letting them sit around vacant like much of the crossroads.  It was the "that's not for me so I won't pay for it" attitude that kept KC in the shadows over many years, and I think as with other bigger cities, we need to be happy with things that are successful, yet still try to promote/support the local flavor when they are willing to make an investment in us.

it would be a different story if Cordish came to town, started buying up land and started to build their district from scratch.  my beef with the P+L isn't that it exists, but that it exists b/c the city bent over backwards and doled out who knows what to get it, likely to the detriment of the local entrepreneurs who spend their own money on land, taxes, etc. 

[KCPowercat]

it exists b/c the city bent over backwards and doled out who knows what to get it

wait...you aren't sure what the city has done yet you are against it?  ok.

likely to the detriment of the local entrepreneurs who spend their own money on land, taxes, etc. 

I disagree here...I think the local land owners are benefiting big time...but hey, I'm just one owner downtown.


It seems you are just against any sort of big project development that requires tax incentives.....PAC?  Sprint Center?  West Edge?  Plaza?  Legends?  east village?

[chrizow]

my point, which i have stated ten times, is a very small, idealistic one.  here it is, read it slowly:

i, chrizow, love this city and the people in it.  i appreciate the hard work of the entrepreneurs who have put their financial lives on the line and worked to make something out of literally nothing (the crossroads).  it just makes me sad that the same city govt whose policies led to the irreverent destruction of what made KC awesome (a) makes life ever more difficult for small business owners downtown, while (b) making life as easy as possible for a plastic $850M corporate development.  this dichotomy just does not sit well with me.  if that makes me an elitist, then awesome.

[KCPowercat]

I guess I disagree with (a).

And as a resident, worker, and investor of downtown, I see the benefit of both types of development and frequent them both.

[KCTigerFan]

Unless I'm mistaken, the city wasn't offering the amount of subsidies to invest in the Crossroads as it gave to Cordish.

1.  The P&L and Crossroads (or any other area) are not mutually exclusive.  They both can thrive and prosper.

2.  If the Crossroads had been able to organize their interests better 5-7 years ago and made a pitch to the city I am confident that they would have had an overlay TIF and other development incentives.  The same reason I love and frequent the Crossroads, is also one of the main reasons (along with antiquated stupid city regulations) that they struggle.  They lack a unified common goal many times.   

[bobbyhawks]

my point, which i have stated ten times, is a very small, idealistic one.  here it is, read it slowly:

i, chrizow, love this city and the people in it.  i appreciate the hard work of the entrepreneurs who have put their financial lives on the line and worked to make something out of literally nothing (the crossroads).  it just makes me sad that the same city govt whose policies led to the irreverent destruction of what made KC awesome (a) makes life ever more difficult for small business owners downtown, while (b) making life as easy as possible for a plastic $850M corporate development.  this dichotomy just does not sit well with me.  if that makes me an elitist, then awesome.

I completely understand where you are coming from, and I would absolutely prefer a locally grown entertainment district to one subsidized by the government, but the truth is, very little was happening after the initial influx of galleries.  My opinion is that without Barnes' wooing of Cordish and the Sprint Center deal, we would still be walking past empty lots, and businesses would still be leaving the core.  I also think it is unfair to compare this city government to the ones who dismantled the old, vibrant downtown from the 60's through the 90's (I'm assuming that is what you mean by the destruction of what made KC cool).  It has had zero going for it during that stretch, and this is the first truly bold move made in god knows how many years.  The Crossroads would not have been able to sustain growth with only First Fridays and art galleries, and the fact you either already know about or would never be able to find on foot many of the establishments in the area isn't helping anything.

[bahua]

It doesn't help that Kansas City is extremely development/entertainment hostile, especially toward small businesses.