Cordish may sue over non-P&L festival liquor licenses

[aknowledgeableperson]

Countless developers had opportunities to redevelop downtown over the years.  CWB has been a great downtown advocate and built the Town Pavilion  and more.  They are just one example of good developers who passed on the opportunity to redevelop the south loop.  Why? 

Because most of what is in the P&L District, and then some, was controlled for redevelopment purposes by Stan Durwood.  Those rights preempted anyone else from developing that plot of land unitl the city took back the redevelopment rights.

[mean]

Let's get real.  Downtown had gone backward for almost 40 years.  We tried to do it ourselves and failed.  Downtown couldn't afford another failure.  It had to get done and get done right. 

If you ignore the fact that downtowns all over went backwards for 40 years, you might have a point.

[KC-wildcat]

If you ignore the fact that downtowns all over went backwards for 40 years, you might have a point.

I disagree.  Sure, cities may have recessed due to "white flight" or whatever reason, but when other cities began recovering, Kansas City just kept on tanking.  All across the country, cities have been agressivly redevloping their DTs and tackling progressive issues like effective mass transit.  Our rivals have been doing this for the last 15 years.  It's 2008, and we're barely 1 year into our renaissance.  What's worse, it's looking more and more like this "renaissance" will be nothing more than a brief, transient, blip on the radar.  Instead of building on the momentum of this unprecedented revival, our "leader" is reigning it in and closing it down.

Other cities may have been hit, but they dug out of the hole a lot faster than us. 

[mean]

Kansas City is always late to the party on stuff like this, or has been in recent memory. When in the last 50 years have we been a progressive urban leader rather than a trend-follower?

Still, I find it pretty baffling for you to say that we're barely 1 year into our renaissance. We're barely one year into our mega-TIFsplosion, sure, but the demand has been there since the late 1990s, and people have been interested in and moving back into downtown and the urban core for a decade in gradually increasing numbers. Certainly high profile nature of the big developments has helped raise awareness, but trust me, the momentum was already there and wasn't going away whether we got big developments or not. This site wasn't founded barely a year ago, it was founded over five years ago; and even that was several years after the "reawakening" had begun. I don't think KCP started this because he thought maybe in 5-8 years there would be a renaissance; he saw it happening and created a site.

Obviously it is true that we're behind the curve of cities like Denver and Minneapolis, but I don't see any way to catch up. They got a head start, and while we're trying to catch up they'll (if they're smart) always be pushing ahead with new stuff. Honestly, I'd like to see us do something different, something new, something nobody has done before to try and jump ahead of the game. But what? PRT? I dunno.

[NDTeve]

You call what the PandL plus PAC a "blip" on the radar? Lets not get too dramatic now.

[medleyj]

Let's get real.  Downtown had gone backward for almost 40 years.  We tried to do it ourselves and failed.

Has it never occurred to you that the reason for previous failures had more to do with what developers were building than with who was building it. The fact is, the things that were done in Kansas City were no different than what was done elsewhere. William H Whyte, an astute observer of city life, wrote:

"To save the city, they would repudiate it. So, in spirit as well as form the suburban shopping mall is transplanted to downtown." ("City: Rediscover the Center", 1988, p207)

If you look around downtown you will find three examples of this. The obvious one is Crown Center. The Town Pavilion is the second. City Center Square is the third. These developments are easy to criticize now, but they represented the best thinking of their times. By the time Barnes was looking around for somebody to redevelop downtown, planers all over the country knew what the solution was: mixed-use development with shops on the streets. Decades of down-town mall development and volumes of research had shown that what worked best for downtowns was the same thing that worked before cars fooled us all into thinking we could replicate suburbia in the hood.

There are several reasons for the failures of the 70s and 80s. For starters, people aren't going to drive many miles for something they have right next door. Some developers tried to get around this by making the insides of their downtown malls look like streets. Also, according to one book on the subject, downtown shopping malls are "costly to build and costly to maintain" ("Downtown, Inc.: How America Rebuilds Cities", 1989, p312). A vibrant downtown also needs residents, particularly property owners, who care about the location as a community and to provide an economic base for the businesses that locate there. This residential development needs to be high density in order to give the strongest base. Some developments, like Crown Center figured out this part of the equation in the 70s. (J.C. Nicols figured this out in the 1920s when he sold the land surrounding the Plaza specifically for the development of high-rise apartment buildings.) But mixed-used developments were unusual in the 70s when zoning and development favored radical segregation of land use.

These lessons were not clear in the 70s and muddy in the 80s. But they were clear by the time Barnes came along. That knowledge was just as available to local developers as it was to the Cordish company. Kansas City may have been slower than most cities to learn these lessons, but that is not the same thing as incompetence.

I stand by my statement. We could have done this ourselves.

[mean]

Could have, and were. It is certainly true that Cordish came along and brought a high profile, widely visible development that has to date brought tons more people downtown in a much quicker time frame than could have possibly been accomplished any other way. By all appearances this is a good thing and will continue to be a good thing; but the fact is, whether this concept works out for the long term or not remains to be seen. In twenty years we may be lamenting building a canned entertainment district in the heart of downtown rather than letting it fill itself in slowly, organically over time. P&L may not be enclosed, but we have essentially transplanted the current paradigm in suburban shopping malls into downtown, just like we did with the developments in the 1970s and 1980s.

[Highlander]

In twenty years we may be lamenting building a canned entertainment district in the heart of downtown rather than letting it fill itself in slowly, organically over time.

Maybe, but I have been following downtown development for a long time, since the early 80's when the first glint of a renaissance began to appear with loft dwellings sprouting up in the river market.  In the mid 80's, this had gathered a pretty good head of steam but there was SO much to infill and the rate was so slow that it was clear that without a catalyst, good things might happen, but ridding the south loop of the parking lot prairie was going to take more than a lifetime (for me at least).  Twenty years from now, we might be tearing down the P&L District to build something better, so be it, but if that is the case, the P&L district served its purpose and also contributed to its own demise by providing a suitable catalyst. 

Right now, I cannot think of any hardly any new construction in the Crossroads that has gone towards a concentrated entertainment venue, most everything has utilzed existing building stock.  Same for inside the loop, outside of the few towers built there that met with mixed succes with retail/restaurants on their ground floor.  Our organic renaissance, as great as it has been, seemed unable to take the next step and provide the impotus for new construction.  It's wonderful to rehab buildings but their was just an incredible amount of space to absorb before we ever got to the even larger task of filling in the vast areas of nothingness in DT.  I'm glad Cordish is there.  At the moment, it seems to have provided a catalyst that could lead to new residents and new business, and in turn, prompt public transportation to support it and so forth.  What's better is that it even looks like some of that might happen in my lifetime. 

[aknowledgeableperson]

I disagree.  Sure, cities may have recessed due to "white flight" or whatever reason, but when other cities began recovering, Kansas City just kept on tanking.  All across the country, cities have been agressivly redevloping their DTs and tackling progressive issues like effective mass transit.  Our rivals have been doing this for the last 15 years.  It's 2008, and we're barely 1 year into our renaissance.  What's worse, it's looking more and more like this "renaissance" will be nothing more than a brief, transient, blip on the radar.  Instead of building on the momentum of this unprecedented revival, our "leader" is reigning it in and closing it down.

Other cities may have been hit, but they dug out of the hole a lot faster than us. 

Yes, other cities may have come out of the hole faster than KCMO but there were many attempts in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.  It just didn't start with MKB.  When do you think the residential towers by 8th and Main were originally built?  When did the Garment District start with its rebirth? When do you think the new construction on Quality Hill was done?  The constuction around 12th and Main.  Voter approved taxpayer assistance to Durwood for the original P&L District.  Crown Center?  The attempt to pass light rail in the 90's.  And many other examples.

You might call many of the above false starts and completed small projects but there were many individual attempts to do something downtown.  And there are many reasons why the city did not progress as fast as others.  Some political.  Some financial.  Some due to economic conditions.  Some due to individual bad decisions.  Anyway, get out of your head the idea that KCMO just sat on its hands doing nothing until the recent past.

[KC-wildcat]

Yes, other cities may have come out of the hole faster than KCMO but there were many attempts in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.  It just didn't start with MKB.  When do you think the residential towers by 8th and Main were originally built?  When did the Garment District start with its rebirth? When do you think the new construction on Quality Hill was done?  The constuction around 12th and Main.  Voter approved taxpayer assistance to Durwood for the original P&L District.  Crown Center?  The attempt to pass light rail in the 90's.  And many other examples.

You might call many of the above false starts and completed small projects but there were many individual attempts to do something downtown.  And there are many reasons why the city did not progress as fast as others.  Some political.  Some financial.  Some due to economic conditions.  Some due to individual bad decisions.  Anyway, get out of your head the idea that KCMO just sat on its hands doing nothing until the recent past.

What's your point?  I shouldn't criticize leadership in KC because they "tried" to get things turned around?  Because they meant well? 

Personally, I can respect that people tried, but in the end, I don't care.  That doesn't mean anything to me.  It's like finishing last in the race and being told that "effort" is all that matters.  Well, IMO, I think that's just being an apologist.  So, we didn't sit on our hands.  Congrats.  But, tell me, what did we do to get this city turned around?  I'm really interested to hear your answer.  Because, until Barnes and Cordish, nobody in the metro gave a shit about DT.  Now, with SC, PAC, P&L, Bartle, KC matters.  People care.  I know.  I've lived here my entire life.

[aknowledgeableperson]

What's your point?  I shouldn't criticize leadership in KC because they "tried" to get things turned around?  Because they meant well? 

  Because, until Barnes and Cordish, nobody in the metro gave a shit about DT.  Now, with SC, PAC, P&L, Bartle, KC matters. 

That is BS.

Plans for Bartle go back into the 80's and 90's.  And Bartle, and Municipal, had stages of improvements in the 80's and 90's.

And it's not that one shouldn't criticize but the level of criticizm that is put out.  Many things were going on in downtown KCMO in the 70's, 80's, and 90's and by ignoring or downplaying that fails to give to what was accomplished at that time.  And if nobody gave a shit about DT those projects would not have occurred. If you go to this page and hit the red dots for downtown projects you will see how many of these occurred before Barnes, and Cordish, were around.  Yes, some of those projects didn't pan out but people did care about downtown KC.  Maybe not the young ones looking to party but people were investing in downtown.  And without those projects KC downtown would be in worse shape now than without them.

http://www.kansascity.com/static/media/ ... cts_Flash/

Believe it or not there is more to downtown than the latest hotspot.

[KC-wildcat]

That is BS.

Plans for Bartle go back into the 80's and 90's.  And Bartle, and Municipal, had stages of improvements in the 80's and 90's.

And it's not that one shouldn't criticize but the level of criticizm that is put out.  Many things were going on in downtown KCMO in the 70's, 80's, and 90's and by ignoring or downplaying that fails to give to what was accomplished at that time.  And if nobody gave a shit about DT those projects would not have occurred. If you go to this page and hit the red dots for downtown projects you will see how many of these occurred before Barnes, and Cordish, were around.  Yes, some of those projects didn't pan out but people did care about downtown KC.  Maybe not the young ones looking to party but people were investing in downtown.  And without those projects KC downtown would be in worse shape now than without them.

http://www.kansascity.com/static/media/ ... cts_Flash/

Believe it or not there is more to downtown than the latest hotspot.

All I hear is "blah, blah, blah."  DT was dead before Barnes and Cordish.  Just admit it.  We all saw it.  We all experienced it.  Don't make me post the ghosttown that has been posted on here a hundred times.  Main Street Morgue v. P&L.  hmmm.  Again, I respect that "efforts" were made and some stop-gap measures were employed.  And, yeah, we'd be worse off without them.  But, I also realize that all of these stop-gaps kept Kansas City in the dark ages when most other similarly situated cities began rising back to prominence. 

We had the Quaff and a few locals milling around at night.  Few businesses were open past 6:00.  I mean, for god's sake, we still don't even have a grocery store.  Are we talking about Dodge City or Kansas City.  Get real man.  Cordish has effectively turned KC on its head and reversed decades of poor planning.  $$$ is flowing.  Spin off growth is occuring.  People actually want to work and live DT.  P&L is crazy.  SC is booked most nights.  Things are finally happening.  And, the things that are happening are unprecedented.  We've never seen anything even remotely close to what happened during the Barnes era.  You cite little piecemeal examples of civic fluff.  Great.  Barnes brought us P&L, PAC, H&R, and SC.  Whose policy wins?  What taxpayer is suffering at the hand of the evil TIF?  Because, for all of the negativity that gets associated with TIF, all I've seen is the creation of hundreds of jobs and a redevelopment of an entire half of the core.     

[bahua]

Onec again, you're trying to speak authoritatively about something you obviously don't know. Downtown's status as a "ghost town," doesn't depend on whether or not you were going out there.

[kard]

All I hear is "blah, blah, blah."  DT was dead before Barnes and Cordish.  Just admit it.  We all saw it.  We all experienced it.  Don't make me post the ghosttown that has been posted on here a hundred times.  Main Street Morgue v. P&L.  hmmm.  Again, I respect that "efforts" were made and some stop-gap measures were employed.  And, yeah, we'd be worse off without them.  But, I also realize that all of these stop-gaps kept Kansas City in the dark ages when most other similarly situated cities began rising back to prominence. 

We had the Quaff and a few locals milling around at night.  Few businesses were open past 6:00.  I mean, for god's sake, we still don't even have a grocery store.  Are we talking about Dodge City or Kansas City.  Get real man.  Cordish has effectively turned KC on its head and reversed decades of poor planning.  $$$ is flowing.  Spin off growth is occuring.  People actually want to work and live DT.  P&L is crazy.  SC is booked most nights.  Things are finally happening.  And, the things that are happening are unprecedented.  We've never seen anything even remotely close to what happened during the Barnes era.  You cite little piecemeal examples of civic fluff.  Great.  Barnes brought us P&L, PAC, H&R, and SC.  Whose policy wins?  What taxpayer is suffering at the hand of the evil TIF?  Because, for all of the negativity that gets associated with TIF, all I've seen is the creation of hundreds of jobs and a redevelopment of an entire half of the core.     

i really don't see how anyone can see it that one-sided.  taxpayers and tif?  our last mayor put the city in to debt like we haven't seen before and no one knows just how easily we're going to pay it back.  it's going well so far, but caution is always wise.  as for the new jobs, we still haven't had enough time to evaluate the PnL's effect on other neighborhoods such as westport, the plaza, and other businesses.

bottom line:  i think you're really going overboard with the support.  sure, development is exciting, but a lot of folks think a moment of evaluation is prudent after doing all that.

[KC-wildcat]

Onec again, you're trying to speak authoritatively about something you obviously don't know. Downtown's status as a "ghost town," doesn't depend on whether or not you were going out there.

I know you're proud of the fact that you lived DT and invested your own $$$ into local businesses well before Barnes or Cordish.  I respect the fact that you did.  Frankly, I wish more people would have done the same thing.  As I've said in other threads, I wish the Kelley's of the world would have invested money into restuarants and bars in the core.  That being said, DT was dead.  I'm speaking in relative terms.  Sure, there were some things going on.  There were various projects.  But, let's be honest, aside from the occasional convention at Bartle or event at Kemper, DT had nothing.  Hardly anybody lived DT, nobody shopped there, and certainly, nobody socialized there.  It's too early to tell on the retail end, but post P&L, these trends are being reversed quite quickly.  Compared to Oklahoma City, Wichita, Salina, Sedalia, etc., DT was quite lively.  I get it.  However, compared to other similarly situated metros, the core was baron.  In large part, it was feeling the effects many other cities felt.  Fine.  The point remains, KC had been devestated, whatever the reason.  It was in dire need of leadership, visions, and redevelopment.  During a small window, we had that.  Look around you.  The results speak for themselves. 

 

[bahua]

I moved and bought downtown because it was the best neighborhood in town, in my opinion. Not because I thought I was being some kind of trailblazer. I don't think I was. I think I was just responding to market forces that had already been drawing people and excitement downtown for at least ten years prior. Even if the Power and Light District, the Sprint Center, and the Rep hadn't been built, downtown would still easily be my favorite part of town, and unequivocally the most attractive for living, working, and playing.

Those things piled on the excitement, but they didn't create it.

[thesnowman21]

Well it looks like Cordish wont be suing the city since the bill is dead

http://kansascity.bizjournals.com/kansa ... st=b_ln_hl

[knucklehead]

The private sector in KC loves suburban sprawl. The brain dead KC Chamber of Commerce is exhibit A. Crosby Kemper is exhibit B. The Hall's really aren't much better. The old man Joyce Hall had vision but after he died things went down hill.

Things will improve as the "stuck in the 1970s" old guard retires. 

[FangKC]

The festival license issue is dead in the State Legislature for now.

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/s ... l?ana=e_du