Develop the area around the TSC?

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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bahua
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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby bahua » Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:05 pm

Nevertheless, Hunter's Point is absolutely incomparable to Kauffman. All it has in common with Kauffman is that it isn't downtown. SF has *nothing* like the Leeds "district."

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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby GRID » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:48 pm

The TSC is never going to develop the way you guys are thinking, ever and for NUMOROUS reasons that I have already posted 50 times.  It can't be compared to Candlestick or Village West either.  The TSC is a unique situation.  We will be lucky if it develops at all with warehouses etc.  The TSC is what it is, a drive to and park stadium complex and it's going to be like that for another 25 years so we may as well make the best of it.  The most that might happen over that 25 years is we build light rail down I-70 and redevelop the area north of 70 and east of Blue Ridge with some high density residential.  Retail will not work at the TSC, period.

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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby Deleted User » Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:32 pm

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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby kcdcchef » Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:35 pm

Michael® wrote:
If you think TSC will ever be developed you're crazy.




maybe it will be, maybe it won't be. all i know with certainty is that it passed on april 3rd, and the royals and chiefs will both be playing in rehabbed stadiums, and be staying at the tsc for YEARS to come.
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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby Deleted User » Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:49 pm

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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby trailerkid » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:41 am

kcdcchef wrote:maybe it will be, maybe it won't be. all i know with certainty is that it passed on april 3rd, and the royals and chiefs will both be playing in rehabbed stadiums, and be staying at the tsc for YEARS to come.


Proof positive you can't rely on the moronic preferences of Joe Q. Public.

GRID wrote:The TSC is never going to develop the way you guys are thinking, ever and for NUMOROUS reasons that I have already posted 50 times.  It can't be compared to Candlestick or Village West either.  The TSC is a unique situation.  We will be lucky if it develops at all with warehouses etc.  The TSC is what it is, a drive to and park stadium complex and it's going to be like that for another 25 years so we may as well make the best of it.  The most that might happen over that 25 years is we build light rail down I-70 and redevelop the area north of 70 and east of Blue Ridge with some high density residential.  Retail will not work at the TSC, period.


Care to explain any actual reasons? Dallas may be bigger, but it also sucks more. IMO the Trumans Sports Complex is in one of the most high profile locations in the metro. Demos aren't bad and the area is way underserved in terms of retail/restaurants. Your theory against retail/restaurants around stadiums is kinda off-base. Even look at our stadium district and how well Denny's, Taco Bell and the Clarion have stayed open.

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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby KCMax » Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:41 am

I don't know if this would be at all feasible, but wouldn't it be kinda cool if they built some condo towers on the bluff facing Kauffman Stadium opposite I-70 by the FCA building? "Arrowhead Towers" or something like that. I can see some rabid Chiefs fans scooping that up.
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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby shinatoo » Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:24 am

Main reason for slow development of the whole 40 hwy cooridor is SKIP. He has been holding thousands of acers for decades and refuses to develop them.

How great would the blue river valley be as a modern riverfront development, recapturing it from its now dead industrial past.

I'm sure EPA cleanup would be a bitch.
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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby LenexatoKCMO » Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:34 am

I recall hearing that the owners hold all of the development rights to TSC under both the old and new leases.  I have a hard time imagining either of those two risking several hundreds of millions on a bold development initiative.

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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby bahua » Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:06 am

What is SKIP, and what is an acer?

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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby KC0KEK » Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:23 am

bahua wrote:What is SKIP, and what is an acer?


Skip is Skip Sleyster (sp.?), the same guy who writes an ad column in the Sunday Star.

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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby Deleted User » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:04 pm

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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby KCMax » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:09 pm

I don't know the area all that well, so Michael could very well be right. But it is frustrating that there is no development. Can't the area be salvaged? It was kind of embarrassing talking to Cardinals fans about Kauffman.
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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby Deleted User » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:16 pm

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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby KCMax » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:18 pm

Because we're stuck with it for 25 years and I want to improve my baseball experience. Plus I think its an embarrassment and I think that for many Midwestern tourists, the TSC will be one of the few KC attractions they visit and I don't want to hear any more jokes about the Denny's and Taco Bell.
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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby bahua » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:43 pm

I'd love to see a neighborhood conjured out of thin air there, but I don't see it happening.

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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby GRID » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:47 pm

trailerkid wrote:Proof positive you can't rely on the moronic preferences of Joe Q. Public.

Care to explain any actual reasons? Dallas may be bigger, but it also sucks more. IMO the Trumans Sports Complex is in one of the most high profile locations in the metro. Demos aren't bad and the area is way underserved in terms of retail/restaurants. Your theory against retail/restaurants around stadiums is kinda off-base. Even look at our stadium district and how well Denny's, Taco Bell and the Clarion have stayed open.


There is close to 10 million sq ft of retail a few miles east of the stadiums along Noland, around Indep Center and the blue ridge mall site.  The demos are better, the traffic volumes are higher and there are no stadium traffic disruptions.  Believe it or not, stadiums and retail do not do well together at all.  If there was even an IKEA across from the TSC, people would avoid it on many nights and weekends, peak retail times because of the "stadium traffic" and that same stadium traffic does not generate retail traffic.  The Legends stays busy "around" races days because of all the people in town, during an actual race day, NFM is dead dead dead, people are not going to drive to NFM when they know there are 75,000 out there.  I have been to nearly every big league football and baseball stadium in the country, and by far and large, urban or suburban, they are isolated and have a buffer zone where the only real economic activity is parking revenue except "maybe" one or two bars within a block.  Now further away, sure, but the traffic impact on retail is opposite what you think.  Now you might think I'm being contradictory, because any retail around the TSC would not be right next to the stadium but about as far away from the stadium as LoDo is from Coors or Gaslight is from Petco, but it's different for retail/bars etc you have to have pedestrians.

What I'm saying is the way the TSC is set up, the way that area of the metro is developed and continues to develop and our current plans for renovating the stadiums are all major issues that will make it nearly impossible for the TSC area to develop (other than sporadic housing or warehouse developments).

So here are my reasons for the TSC never changing:

Jackson County has control of the land around the TSC and there is a lot of it and they don't know what they are doing.

That land is very rough and would be very difficult and expensive to develop.

The city also has a lot of land in the area and uses it for things people don't want to see and would be very difficult to relocate, such as the corrections facility, the pd helicopter pads, the animal shelter and others.

There is already plenty of retail serving eastern Jackson county and really the entire metro, especially the "destination" retail that the TSC would desire.

To actually tie the stadiums to any development would require the cooperation of the royals and chiefs and they have no interest messing with the cash cow parking lots.

The county, city and state are not going to put anywhere near the incentives on the table that KCK did for the speedway area, especially given all the reasons above that would show that it would not work anyway and the chiefs and royals again will not go for redirecting extra taxes and fees to develop the surrounding area.

The stadiums are so isolated and set back so far from the streets that there is almost nothing that can be done to enhance the external experience of going to a game there other than making the routes to and from the stadiums more aesthetically pleasing.

There is no transit in the area, light rail in the area is not even on the radar map of local planners and a bus line will not cut it.

The TSC is what it is, a suburban minded, yet rather convenient auto dependent isolated stadium complex where you drive to the complex and drive home, the only thing we can really hope for are some added attractions within that island of activity such as a major hotel or mixed use tower between the stadiums, etc or other similar structures and venues that could share the parking lots and infrastructure such as a soccer stadium (the TSC would be perfect for a soccer complex vs putting it in Desoto but JoCo would never be a part of a TSC funding deal) or a major amphitheater (I would love to see one in Penn Valley Park or River Front, but I would take a new one at the TSC over Verizon which is by far the worst and most white trash amphitheater I have ever seen).

So there you go...

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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby shinatoo » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:57 pm

bahua wrote:What is SKIP, and what is an acer?


Yeah it's Skip Slyster. He has SKIP spelled out in huge salvaged letters on the old hotel across the street from the strip joint on 40.

An acer is also refered to as "acre" by those of you who did not graduate from the Raytown Institute of Higher Learning.

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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby trailerkid » Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:52 am

I see where you're going Grid, but this part simply isn't true:

GRID wrote:I have been to nearly every big league football and baseball stadium in the country, and by far and large, urban or suburban, they are isolated and have a buffer zone where the only real economic activity is parking revenue except "maybe" one or two bars within a block.


There are tons of major league stadiums, arenas, etc. with "stadium districts" where there are restaurants and bars all around it. When there are big events, the restaurants do business to the point where they can't handle the crowds. Most of these areas are tacky and filled with meatheads on game day, but they do exist all over the country. All I'm saying is that a mini-stadium district around Truman could easily survive and prosper.

Why must the "retail and restaurants" around the stadium be mega-big box like IKEA? You have a very myopic way of looking at a situation. NFM, Off Broadway Shoes and such are dead on race days at Village West...BUT Hooters, Saddle Ranch, Yard House et. al will set sales records. Visitors, tourists, etc. want places to spend money...so we are incapable of doing that around the stadium? All I'm asking for is something else out there if that's what we're stuck with for the next 20 years. A little faux urban strip of stuff like Old Chicago, KC Store, bars, BBQ, Hooters, and a hotel is better than what is there now.

I understand that it won't happen, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't improve things.

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Re: Develop the area around the TSC?

Postby AF » Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:59 pm

I agree that for the most part you cant develop anywhere around TSC. But what if you tore down the Vatterott College building and put up some kind of plaza style development there. It wouldnt have to be very big but it could be very nice. That way the people that would like to drive out early for the game could park and walk across the bridge. If it was built nice enough, I think the local residents would use it as well.


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