Questions Fail - Downtown Baseball?

[GRID]

I know what you mean GRID.  Up until yesterday, I was an undecided voter.  I know my signature says Vote YES and stuff, but I might turn around and vote NO.  I know where Chef is coming from, but I also understand where lock&load is coming from.  Both (believe it or not) make great points.

I am just scared of losing either one of the teams, and it's hard to pass up a Super Bowl and an All Star Game.  But, by voting YES, I feel like I am stabbing downtown.  So, I still might vote NO.   :?

Yea, there is a reason, I have not disputed Chef's sig

[bahua]

we do not even have a straight answer from the teams, the county, or anyone involved whether or not the lease is defaulted or not. does that not frighten any of you? you vote no for your various principles on the issue, then what? you think the teams, or the county, is going to be in a rush to get back to the table to hammer it out by august or november? once it is defaulted, now, later, next year, whenever, once the defaulting happens, there is no way to force either team to accept the band aid, or whatever is done. so, to vote no, based on how much money the teams are putting in, is dumb. there are 20 taxpayer stadiums out there that are free to the teams, 20. it is not the worst deal. out of the remaining 34 stadiums, only 5 were built 100% by their owners. out of those 5, there are 3 where the city spent double what the team did on the area that the stadium went into, and one, foxboro, where people are pissed off at how much the state put into the aging decrepid area. to vote no just on the principe the owners are not contributing enough, compare apples to apples, how many cities our size can we compare to? minnesotta is still in the process of working it out, portland / charlotte are still in the process of getting established as major league cities, so, to compare us to larger cities, or teams with richer owners, makes NO sense. compare us to st louis because we are similar in size? yeah, sure, fair fight, they are getting some serious dough from anheuser busch ( naming rights ) and live in a city that ponies up for the development around it. can you imagine, in kansas city missouri, asking city residents, and people nearby, to invest the kind of money into downtown that they are there? sure, it is owner financed on the stadium, but the people in that region are footing some hefty bills on civic redevelopment, can you imagine an area like kc, with a downtown stadium on the ballot, agreeing to vote yes on shit like that?? listen to the callers to am radio, the letters to the star, the homes along ward parkway, the businesses with the sos signs in their windows, the region does NOT have the support for a dt stadium, because there are WAY too many people like me who still love kauffman and arrowhead.

if we want to say it is bad business for the teams playing in OUR stadiums to dictate where they play, then, there are 38 other markets in pro sports doing it wrong. i guess we should be visionaries and blaze a new trail on this one, and risk losing our teams??

if we lose these teams over this BULLSHIT, that would bring the tally to 5 professional sports teams lost. do you really think any of the 4 leagues, will be in any hurry to get us a new team? the nfl or mlb, will shy away from this market big time. it cost cleveland 600m to get the nfl back, what makes you think any of the big 4 will be in a hurry to get us sports back if we lose a 4th and 5th team?

for the sake of everyone in the region, and kansas citians at heart that live elsewhere, vote yes.

That made no sense, because you seem to be dwelling on a vote for downtown baseball. It's just a possibility, and it's not the only alternative to a yes vote on April 4th. We could very easily send the county back to the books to put together a proposal that provides for the required maintenance and repairs, and not a billion-dollar screwjob with no assurance of any actual work ever being done.

We, the people of Jackson County could very easily hold our end of the contract by making $100 million in repairs to our stadiums, and then the terrified masses wouldn't have to worry about the piece-of-shit Royals or the not-going-anywhere Chiefs leaving town until 2015.

A 900% overpayment into corporate welfare is not the answer. It will only hurt Kansas City, and encourage the owners to bilk us for even more, wielding another empty threat. We still have time to do this right. This is not our last chance.

[AllThingsKC]

howso? 4b of development going on already, plus the east village is getting off the ground. dt is coming around without this.

Because I have been to St. Louis and Bucsh Stadium.  I really liked the feeling of enjoying an eveing game, surrrounded by tall buildings.  I think it brings a better sence of unity to that city.  Not that KC doesn't have that sence of unity, it does.  But, to me, there was nothing better than supporting a team, supporting a city, in that city, with other residents of that city.  For St. Louis, it's 2 things that make that city great: Downtown.  Cardinals.  They're together.  I would like for that same feeling to be in KC.

[kcdcchef]

That made no sense, because you seem to be dwelling on a vote for downtown baseball. It's just a possibility, and it's not the only alternative to a yes vote on April 4th. We could very easily send the county back to the books to put together a proposal that provides for the required maintenance and repairs, and not a billion-dollar screwjob with no assurance of any actual work ever being done.

We, the people of Jackson County could very easily hold our end of the contract by making $100 million in repairs to our stadiums, and then the terrified masses wouldn't have to worry about the piece-of-shit Royals or the not-going-anywhere Chiefs leaving town until 2015.

A 900% overpayment into corporate welfare is not the answer. It will only hurt Kansas City, and encourage the owners to bilk us for even more, weilding another empty threat. We still have time to do this right. This is not our last chance.

you do not know that it is not your last chance, you are just willing to gamble that, well, you already have evidently. 900% overpayment? corporate welfare? what do you base this on? corporate welfare, by it's very nature, is the reason kansas city is coming back to life as it is. you don't seem to mind the HUGE breaks given to h&r block, cordish, je dunn, jury and associates, pitsilli hotel group, whoever benefits by getting a free arena, you dont mind that corporate welfare, yet, you mind the owners getting it. why is it that it bothers you so bad that corporate welfare goes on 2 blocks from your residence, yet, it just kills you 8 miles away?? the propoganda that has been stirred up by certain forum members posing as the saveourowners people ( great job, i have to admit ) and the 810 buttholes, is amazing, they have blatently made the entire metro forget that there are 20 free stadiums in exsistence already, and that is not counting 5 of the oldest, kauffman, arrowhead, yankee, and wrigley. and out of those 5, 2 of them have already recieved OVER 100m in the past 10 years to get renovations done, and one of them, yankee, got 200m 30 years ago. yet, you guys ignore that. why is it okay for 20 stadiums, 25 really, to exsist, without a dime of ownership money, yet, it kills you that these two owners, are both putting in excess of 10%, are both active in local charities to the tune of millions, and both have done a great thing by even giving us pro sports??

do you honestly debate that the city makes money it would not without the teams? if you do, i would love to know how you are going to get the 10,000 plus hotel nights without them. if you do, i would love to know how you would get the millions spent on sports apparel at area stores every year.

and, yet, you support spending 100m plus 1.4b to build 2 brand new ones, when, noone outside of the kansas city area agrees we even need new stadiums. neither comissioner, selig or tagliabue, think kc needs new stadiums. no national media agree. so, why i am i focusing on the dt stadiums? because, the majority of the posters here who bash the owners for their contributions, or this proposal in general, do so all the while saying a downtown stadium would cure their ills.

amazing, how, it is corporate welfare, when, you are investing in the truman sports complex, yet, when it is invested in downtown like all the other handouts, all of the sudden it loses that ugly name of corporate welfare, and all of the sudden gets nice names, like development, and investment.

[bahua]

I'm not going to change your mind. Reason seems to have a way of avoiding you. I say something, and instead of disputing it, you just say, "X does it! So what's wrong!?" I oppose corporate welfare, in any form. Tax abatements to Hallmark, TIF, and sweetheart under-the-table deals with wealthy sports franchise owners all piss me off. The difference here, though, is that we have a say. We can say no to corporate welfare. We can tell the owners that if they want a pavilion for non-baseball things, for the profit of the sports franchise, they can pay for it themselves. That's called an investment, and not a bad one, in my opinion. Obviously, though, it's a much better investment when you can blackmail the taxpayers into paying for it.

[kcdcchef]

I'm not going to change your mind. Reason seems to have a way of avoiding you. I say something, and instead of disputing it, you just say, "X does it! So what's wrong!?" I oppose corporate welfare, in any form. Tax abatements to Hallmark, TIF, and sweetheart under-the-table deals with wealthy sports franchise owners all piss me off. The difference here, though, is that we have a say. We can say no to corporate welfare. We can tell the owners that if they want a pavilion for non-baseball things, for the profit of the sports franchise, they can pay for it themselves. That's called an investment, and not a bad one, in my opinion. Obviously, though, it's a much better investment when you can blackmail the taxpayers into paying for it.

bahua
i am not tapdancing around your points, any more than you are mine. however, saying it is blackmailing taxpayers, is a little unfair. it is in the proposals, they have had meetings, it is public info printed in the star, i mean, you act as though it is hidden.

i will not insult you by asking if you have been to newer stadiums, because you have, however, you can look all over and find examples in toronto, baltimore, phoenix, chicago, and many many other stadiums and find examples of parts of the construction or renovation that added areas that had nothing to do with the game to help the ownership maximize revenue. i mean,shit, arrowhead has had a pavilion for decades, that was taxpayer built, noone mentions that.

you take away corporate welfare, we do not have the stadiums in the first place, crown center, pl district, sprint center, we would not even have a city without it. it is the price of doing business.

[bahua]

Professional sports, including baseball and football, are a massively wealthy industry. The Chiefs, since moving into Arrowhead have increased their net worth from 10 million to 800 million dollars. While it's certainly true that they once needed our help for the construction of a facility for them, they certainly don't anymore.

The sports world is a much richer place than it was in 1970. They days of players working second jobs in the off-season are over. These people have wealth beyond the comprehension of the majority of the world's population, and yet they receive public aid? Doesn't that seem fishy?

Times have changed. Professional sports teams, especially established ones like the Chiefs and the Royals, can afford to take care of their own expansions. It's business.

So yes, for me to say that we are being blackmailed seems pretty fair to me. I don't care about precedents. The bottom line is that we are being threatened(by proxy, mind you- not directly. SOS is the chief perpetrator of the threats) with the loss of these teams, if we don't cough up cash for them. That sounds like blackmail to me.

I might be acting like we are not being told the whole truth, because we aren't. Who knows what's going to happen to the money? What guarantees do we have that it will be spent like they say it will? What oversight is there? We are being bullied into a corner for our lunch money, and because of the only tools SOS has-- fear and threats --we are being cowed into it. I don't want our children to see this kind of abuse of our system.

[kcdcchef]

Professional sports, including baseball and football, are a massively wealthy industry. The Chiefs, since moving into Arrowhead have increased their net worth from 10 million to 800 million dollars. While it's certainly true that they once needed our help for the construction of a facility for them, they certainly don't anymore.

The sports world is a much richer place than it was in 1970. They days of players working second jobs in the off-season are over. These people have wealth beyond the comprehension of the majority of the world's population, and yet they receive public aid? Doesn't that seem fishy?

Times have changed. Professional sports teams, especially established ones like the Chiefs and the Royals, can afford to take care of their own expansions. It's business.

So yes, for me to say that we are being blackmailed seems pretty fair to me. I don't care about precedents. The bottom line is that we are being threatened(by proxy, mind you- not directly. SOS is the chief perpetrator of the threats) with the loss of these teams, if we don't cough up cash for them. That sounds like blackmail to me.

I might be acting like we are not being told the whole truth, because we aren't. Who knows what's going to happen to the money? What guarantees do we have that it will be spent like they say it will? What oversight is there? We are being bullied into a corner for our lunch money, and because of the only tools SOS has-- fear and threats --we are being cowed into it. I don't want our children to see this kind of abuse of our system.

i think you are right, about the money for stadiums for owners, but, what stance would you prefer them to take? sure, hunt could afford a new stadium, glass, cannot. taking that factor out, cities would line up to pay for new stadiums for these teams if we let them leave.

like i said, i do not like corporate welfare either, i wish it were more like new york or la where they frequently tell rich people "fuck you, no tax breaks, no money at all" because they are sitting on land that is that valuable and can afford to.

we, in kansas city, cannot, and if we want the city to continue to grow, and if we want to keep our teams, have very little choice.

there were several cities, that were smaller then us 30 years ago that no longer are. there is another tier preparing to go right on by. we have to decide what stance to take, with regards to so called corporate welfare.

[bahua]

Whether the teams can afford their stadiums or not, we, as a county, absolutely have a contractual obligation to maintain them. We need to establish a tax that will collect 100 million dollars or so, to make the necessary repairs. This can still be done, but there's no pork in the barrel, and that, apparently is unacceptable to Hunt and Glass. They are suffering from a serious entitlement problem. Perhaps it's uncurable, but it seems that they have the county execs in the bathtub with them, because they helped broker this sham.

Maybe there isn't any hope. Maybe Kansas City is doomed to be poised at the whims of its peerless sports franchise owners. Maybe the people of Jackson County have no choice but to jump when Lamar Hunt tells them to. It's very very depressing to me that so many in this county would sell their own city away, just to be able to tell their relatives in Iowa that they have MLB and NFL teams.

I feel like crying.

[shinatoo]

Kietsman (much to my suprise) actually made a good point last night. If all these other towns are so rip roaring ready for the Royals then why haven't the Marlins and Twins, who have been threatening to move for YEARS, and have had several ballot measures fail, moved yet?

Not to mention the fact that the Twins and Marlins have been treating to move and Lamar and David have flat out said that they were not going to.

[kcdcchef]

Kietsman (much to my suprise) actually made a good point last night. If all these other towns are so rip roaring ready for the Royals then why haven't the Marlins and Twins, who have been threatening to move for YEARS, and have had several ballot measures fail, moved yet?

florida JUST started looking this year. minnesotta has never looked. so, really, neither has threatened to move, florida has, and was only granted permission to seek a new home as recently as 3 months ago, and are still talking to miami also.

moving, in any sport, is sketchy at best, until you are serious about it, the other cities will talk to you, but in a guarded manner. once the process is set in motion, that you really are ready to move, it goes quick.

[KCMax]

Minnesota did look. They were going to move to Carolina, but neither Charlotte nor Raleigh-Durham would approve a publicly financed stadium. 

[kcdcchef]

Minnesota did look. They were going to move to Carolina, but neither Charlotte nor Raleigh-Durham would approve a publicly financed stadium. 

you really believe the twins were really looking? did you ever read anything, or see anything on tv, that showed them looking? i never saw anything on the twins end,  i never heard them seriously looking, i do not buy it. i think the media was talking, but when team exec's never go to a city, they are not looking. the media saying a team is looking, is not the same as the team looking.

i lived in dc for the longest time, and the whole country kept speculating dc or northern virginia for the expos, but, until the last 8-10 months of that process, noone ever heard a word on it in dc, just the occasional column in the post.

[KCMax]

"State politicians in Minnesota are trying to figure out a plan to finance a stadium and keep the Twins from moving to North Carolina. Twins owner Carl Pohlad says he wants to keep the Twins in Minnesota, but he has signed a letter of intent to sell the team to a North Carolina group if the state's taxpayers can't come up with a plan to build a new stadium. If Minnesota doesn't come up with a plan by Nov. 30, the Twins are gone. They would likely be called the North Carolina Blue Sox after their move." (source: USA Today, "Inside Baseball", 11/08/1997)

[kcdcchef]

"State politicians in Minnesota are trying to figure out a plan to finance a stadium and keep the Twins from moving to North Carolina. Twins owner Carl Pohlad says he wants to keep the Twins in Minnesota, but he has signed a letter of intent to sell the team to a North Carolina group if the state's taxpayers can't come up with a plan to build a new stadium. If Minnesota doesn't come up with a plan by Nov. 30, the Twins are gone. They would likely be called the North Carolina Blue Sox after their move." (source: USA Today, "Inside Baseball", 11/08/1997)

okay, now i remember that, here is why nothing happened if you are such a history buff and all, contraction. the twins, and expos, were the 2 teams to be eliminated by mlb, and it changed all of that, pohlad was going to get 175m from mlb for his franchise, i do remember that now.

[KCMax]

You're right. Minnesota wouldn't build Pohlad a new stadium. He threatened to move to Carolina. Carolina rejected a public stadium. He threatened to contract. Baseball didn't want to contract. Here we are seven years later, he STILL doesn't have a new stadium, and yet the Twins still play in Minnesota. Funny how all those threats were just empty.

Here we are in KC, and our owner isn't even THREATENTING to move or contract. So why should we expect the Royals to ever leave, especially when the K is leaps and bounds better than the Metro Dome?????

[lock+load]

You're right. Minnesota wouldn't build Pohlad a new stadium. He threatened to move to Carolina. Carolina rejected a public stadium. He threatened to contract. Baseball didn't want to contract. Here we are seven years later, he STILL doesn't have a new stadium, and yet the Twins still play in Minnesota. Funny how all those threats were just empty.

Here we are in KC, and our owner isn't even THREATENTING to move or contract. So why should we expect the Royals to ever leave, especially when the K is leaps and bounds better than the Metro Dome?????

Because chef says so.  I can't think of a better historical situation to prove the likelihood of the Royals leaving is very slim.  But let's dismiss the facts.

[skim82]

Chef, you don't have a vote, so quit trying to freak everyone out.

btw, you're wrong, the FLA Marlins have been trying to negotiate with the state of Florida for almost 10 years.

and Minnesota has been pushing for a new stadium for over 5 years.

MLB will not approve a move to another city other than KC for the Royals until at least 4 or 5 proposals have failed, and there are no other options.  For crying out loud, it took the Expos 8 years before MLB finally Ok'd that move. 

This is the SECOND proposal, folks, it's not the end of the line... i will say this though, if it is passed (which it won't) it would KILL dt baseball in KC. 

Then, in 5 years, while WE are still sitting in an empty K with 13,000 scattered fans, all we'd have to look at is I-70 and a parking lot.  Chef won't be here, and we'll kick ourselves and feel real guilty and stupid for giving the owners everything and getting nothing in return for us.... the taxpayers..

Meanwhile, the North Loop of DT is still filled with parking lots owned by the Crosby's, as the East Village Plan begins to unfold.  River Market will still be experiencing residential development, and a mixed-use area that Cordish is developing.... 2nd Street improvements will be underway... The South Loop with the P&L District will continue to draw regionally....

AND IN THE MEANTIME, EVERY KANSAS CITIAN AND REGIONAL TOURIST WILL WONDER WHAT IN THE HELL WERE JACKSON COUNTY VOTERS THINKING..... AND WHAT BLOOD THIRSTY RETARDED POLITICAN(S) WANTED A BASEBALL STADIUM AT THE TSC WHEN 17 OF THE LAST 19 NEW BASEBALL STADIUMS ARE BUILT DOWNTOWN.

Or, we can be rational, and wisely say FU to the powers that be (i need a doughnut Katheryn Shields) Mike Smith, Kay Barnes, etc... and say GIVE US A BETTER DEAL, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT AS STUPID AS YOU THINK....

We still have a lot of time left people, don't listen to chef.... in fact ask Chef if the Chiefs/Royals have threatened to move... because as far as i'm concerened, its a mute point.... they have NOT threatened to move, and i DARE them to move if they wanted to....

David Glass has obligations in his purchase contract with Royals...it says that he can not make a PROFIT for selling the team... all proceeds or profits will go to a charitable foundation... also, Glass has already said he is not going anywhere.

as far as Lamar goes,  tell him to leave..where the hell is he going to go?? Will the NFL approve a move when the need a midwestern presence??? Also, can you justify moving a team that sells out 78,000 seats??  And if you want to use Cleveland Browns as an example to refute my point, ask yourself this, didn't Cleveland get another team back???

IT'S FINE PEOPLE, QUIT DRINKING THE HATEORADE,  DON'T FALL FOR THIS ABSOLUTLEY IDIOTIC CAMPAIGN... I AM FRANKLY EMBARASSED THAT ELECTED OFFICIALS CAN ACTUALLY SAY THAT THIS IS A "GOOD" PLAN... JESUS...ONLY IN KANSAS CITY, MISSOURI CAN THEY ACTUALLY F*CK UP SO BAD, AND PEOPLE (JACO RESIDENTS) ACTUALLY THINK ITS A GOOD DEAL FOR THEM... 

LAST LINE I PROMISE
FIX THE SEWERS FIRST...

[kcdcchef]

Chef, you don't have a vote, so quit trying to freak everyone out.

wrong. i am voting, tired of all this bullshit, i am voting on it. a

and kietzman, petro, and boal dont have votes, yet, they spend every day scaring the shit out of jackson county voters on the air.

[LenexatoKCMO]

wrong. i am voting, tired of all this bullshit, i am voting on it. a

and kietzman, petro, and boal dont have votes, yet, they spend every day scaring the shit out of jackson county voters on the air.

Who was it that knew Chef's identity - I seriously recommend that you forward that information to the election board.  Election Fraud results in jail time.