Stadiums not an economic boon for taxpayers

[kard]

That's fair enough.  I can't speak for everyone, and I know it's a heated debate--people get worked up.  It's good it's a heated debate--it means people care about the city and take interest in the argument.  I hope you don't come away thinking everyone in the city hates the teams.  I am a little irritated they're asking for that much, personally.  But I won't let that stop me from enjoying opening day.

[lock+load]

well, after the good people of jackson county pass the referendum on april the 4th, a lot of what you mention will change. but, where, exactly, and in what cities, can you buy your teams merchandise or hot dogs without going in? cincy, philly, pitt, toronto, baltimore, all have these groovy dt stadiums you pine for so much, but, there are not hot dog eateries and souvie stores nearby. now, in a lot of cities, they do allow independent vendors to do those things, but, even in those cities, that is more nfl them mlb. only times they do it for mlb is opening day and postseasons, when, the crowds are biggest. do not judge the tsc based on this, the fact that there are not vendors selling hot dogs, and shirts near the k and arrowhead, has nothing to do with the teams or location, it has to do with city ordinances that suck.

Well, I have been to the ballparks in Baltimore, Boston, and Denver, all of which have urban ballparks, and all of at which I was able to engage in commerce on the sidewalk outside the stadium. Hot dogs, beverages, souveniers, etc.  I have not been to the others, but as you are incorrect about Baltimore, I can safely assume your comments about the others should be taken with a grain of salt as well.

it is propoganda on the no side. all this horseshit about how it will cost 900m or a bil, in the long run, then, in the same breath, look at stlouis, buildinga new busch for 350m

And likewise, all this talk of how the teams will escape in the night on April 4th if this does not pass is horseshit.  

[kcdcchef]

Well, I have been to the ballparks in Baltimore, Boston, and Denver, all of which have urban ballparks, and all of at which I was able to engage in commerce on the sidewalk outside the stadium. Hot dogs, beverages, souveniers, etc.  I have not been to the others, but as you are incorrect about Baltimore, I can safely assume your comments about the others should be taken with a grain of salt as well.

you are full of shit if you are saying oriole park at camden yards has STORES outside their stadium selling hot dogs and t shirts. oriole park at camden yards sits right next to their football stadium, in about a third of the parking the tsc has, with the train right in front of it, and the downtown behind it. now, do they have people outside selling shirts, dogs, pretzels? sometimes yes, but, not in storefronts, street vendors. i have seen that in other cities too, but, that has nothing, NOTHING to do with the location of the tsc, that is about city ordinances that prohibit that in kansas city at the truman sports complex. i think vendors outside stadiums grilling brats and selling stuff is great and all, i shit, i am all for that. but, again, here in pittsburgh, we went to several pirate games, and there was NONE of that. but, for steelers, yes. oriole park at camden, we went there to see the o's play the royals, and there were virtually no vendors out that day. later in the season, we were there for some yankees games, and there were vendors. depends on the crowds, LIKE I SAID. but, again, in kansas city, it has nothing to do with location. the ordinances are not set up for that. and, again, it is a problem city wide. you rarely see outdoor vendors in kansas city, in the cbd, where, in reality, there should be several.

And likewise, all this talk of how the teams will escape in the night on April 4th if this does not pass is horseshit. 

noone is saying that. only you.

[LenexatoKCMO]

That's fair enough.  I can't speak for everyone, and I know it's a heated debate--people get worked up.  It's good it's a heated debate--it means people care about the city and take interest in the argument.  I hope you don't come away thinking everyone in the city hates the teams.  I am a little irritated they're asking for that much, personally.  But I won't let that stop me from enjoying opening day.

Exactly - I don't hate the owners per se (though Glasss is starting to wear a bit thin for me).  However, they have presented a very, very lowball offer to the taxpayers.  From a negotiating perspective, I find their lowball offer extremely insulting.  Thus the effective negotiation stance is to reject the insulting offer and ask the other side to come closer to a more acceptable deal.  

[kcdcchef]

Exactly - I don't hate the owners per se (though Glasss is starting to wear a bit thin for me).  However, they have presented a very, very lowball offer to the taxpayers.  From a negotiating perspective, I find their lowball offer extremely insulting.  Thus the effective negotiation stance is to reject the insulting offer and ask the other side to come closer to a more acceptable deal.  

you would be happier living in cleveland, where, taxpayers paid 100% of the football stadium, or baltimore or chicago, where, taxpayers paid 100%. much better deals.

[warwickland]

to be fair, why dont you back up all of your ambiguous numbers and "facts" with at least links. it would really add to the discussion.

[kcdcchef]

to be fair, why dont you back up all of your ambiguous numbers and "facts" with at least links. it would really add to the discussion.

www.ballparks.com

if you are looking for the backup on the free parks i just tossed out, have a looksee. you can see how chicago, baltimore, toronto, tampa bay, cincinatti, atlanta, were all free.

anaheim, got a 120m makeover 10 years ago, although, it should be noted, that the city of anaheim says it went over 150m, and oakland, got a 200m makeover 6 years ago. ( but, according to lockandload, ONLY kc is redoing older stadiums. )

[KCMax]

I don't understand why we are comparing our deal to the worst deals. I'd like to think KC taxpayers are better.

[kcdcchef]

I don't understand why we are comparing our deal to the worst deals. I'd like to think KC taxpayers are better.

we are. however, max, some of your vote no cohorts like to say, that this is the worst deal ever. and i like to think the 6 baseball stadiums i just threw out, that were free to owners, would make those people think otherwise.

[LenexatoKCMO]

anaheim, got a 120m makeover 10 years ago, although, it should be noted, that the city of anaheim says it went over 150m, and oakland, got a 200m makeover 6 years ago. ( but, according to lockandload, ONLY kc is redoing older stadiums. )

Yeah and look what they got -

In Anaheim, a still outdated, suburban park with a wierd pile of rocks in the outfield and a couple of giant baseball helmets in the parking lot.  whoo hoo.  The clock till their new owner starts demanding a replacement has to be ticking pretty fast. 

And in Oakland - They spent a fortune on enhancements that did nothing to make it better for baseball (and arguably worse) and weren't nearly good enough to make it serviceable for football.  It didn't take Al Davis a whole season to start whining that the renovation was inadequate and start threatening to move the team again. 

If we are going to look for examples for inspiration, I would think we would want to point to successes. 

[lock+load]

you are full of shit if you are saying oriole park at camden yards has STORES outside their stadium selling hot dogs and t shirts. oriole park at camden yards sits right next to their football stadium, in about a third of the parking the tsc has, with the train right in front of it, and the downtown behind it. now, do they have people outside selling shirts, dogs, pretzels? sometimes yes, but, not in storefronts, street vendors. i have seen that in other cities too, but, that has nothing, NOTHING to do with the location of the tsc, that is about city ordinances that prohibit that in kansas city at the truman sports complex. i think vendors outside stadiums grilling brats and selling stuff is great and all, i shit, i am all for that. but, again, here in pittsburgh, we went to several pirate games, and there was NONE of that. but, for steelers, yes. oriole park at camden, we went there to see the o's play the royals, and there were virtually no vendors out that day. later in the season, we were there for some yankees games, and there were vendors. depends on the crowds, LIKE I SAID. but, again, in kansas city, it has nothing to do with location. the ordinances are not set up for that. and, again, it is a problem city wide. you rarely see outdoor vendors in kansas city, in the cbd, where, in reality, there should be several.

I didn't say storefronts, I said a hot dog.  Street vendors are what I had in mind.  You won't find them at the K because there are no public sidewalks.  They monopolize the entire area.

noone is saying that. only you.

I am the only one saying the teams are threatening to leave if this doesn't pass?  Are you really that stupid?

[kard]

Jerry "Save Our Billionaires" Agar is on 980 now, playing a tape of him and Darla Jaye talking with Councilman Brooks at this weekend's "Pep Rally".  Brooks is pretty animated!

Brooks:  "You guys are biased already!  Why did you interview me!"
Agar:  "You're biased too!"
Brooks:  "You're suposed to be obejctive!!  Ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!"
Agar and Jaye:  "No we're not--we do talk shows!"

Tehehe...

[lock+load]

Jerry "Save Our Billionaires" Agar is on 980 now, playing a tape of him and Darla Jaye talking with Councilman Brooks at this weekend's "Pep Rally".  Brooks is pretty animated!

Brooks:  "You guys are biased already!  Why did you interview me!"
Agar:  "You're biased too!"
Brooks:  "You're suposed to be obejctive!!  Ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!"
Agar and Jaye:  "No we're not--we do talk shows!"

Tehehe...

Same thing I heard this morning.  He sounds like he has a fifth grade education.

[kcdcchef]

Yeah and look what they got -

In Anaheim, a still outdated, suburban park with a wierd pile of rocks in the outfield and a couple of giant baseball helmets in the parking lot.  whoo hoo.  The clock till their new owner starts demanding a replacement has to be ticking pretty fast. 

And in Oakland - They spent a fortune on enhancements that did nothing to make it better for baseball (and arguably worse) and weren't nearly good enough to make it serviceable for football.  It didn't take Al Davis a whole season to start whining that the renovation was inadequate and start threatening to move the team again. 

If we are going to look for examples for inspiration, I would think we would want to point to successes. 

if you want to look for examples, look at the truman sports complex. over 44 new stadiums have went up while those 2 sat there and set the tone, 44.

and, neither oakland, nor anaheim are asking for new digs. as a matter of fact, the owner of the angels, has said on record recently he does not with for a new stadium, likes it there. you seen anaheim? man, that place is nice now. you have no idea when you go in there that it used to be a concrete donut.

and al davis is not asking for a new stadium. the redo was part of the lease he signed, and it netted him what he wanted, more club suites, and more club seats.

I am the only one saying the teams are threatening to leave if this doesn't pass?  Are you really that stupid?

no. your dumbass is the only one saying they will leave in the middle of the night.

I didn't say storefronts, I said a hot dog.  Street vendors are what I had in mind.  You won't find them at the K because there are no public sidewalks.  They monopolize the entire area.

negative. there are plenty of areas to set up for vendors outside of kauffman. kauffman, is not the property of the royals. it is the taxpayers property. the royals cannot say no vendors out there. however, the city has ordinances, and it prohibits vendors out there.

[lock+load]

no. your dumbass is the only one saying they will leave in the middle of the night.

Middle of the night or end of the season, the point is they are are using the fear of the team leaving to pass this thing.  Once again, pull your head out of your massive ass and understand the point instead of debating the meaningless details.

negative. there are plenty of areas to set up for vendors outside of kauffman. kauffman, is not the property of the royals. it is the taxpayers property. the royals cannot say no vendors out there. however, the city has ordinances, and it prohibits vendors out there.

Well booholly, the city is taking it up the ass on account of the Royals, what a suprise.  If the county tried to allow vendors in the lot, either the teams would bitch and moan and get it stopped, or it is already in the leases that it cannot be done.

[LenexatoKCMO]

and, neither oakland, nor anaheim are asking for new digs. as a matter of fact, the owner of the angels, has said on record recently he does not with for a new stadium, likes it there. you seen anaheim? man, that place is nice now. you have no idea when you go in there that it used to be a concrete donut.

and al davis is not asking for a new stadium. the redo was part of the lease he signed, and it netted him what he wanted, more club suites, and more club seats.

no. your dumbass is the only one saying they will leave in the middle of the night.


negative. there are plenty of areas to set up for vendors outside of kauffman. kauffman, is not the property of the royals. it is the taxpayers property. the royals cannot say no vendors out there. however, the city has ordinances, and it prohibits vendors out there.

I have been to Anaheim both pre and post renovation and honestly, it was better before - at least before it was just an outdated mid-century ballpark - now it looks like an outdated ballpark tarted up with some very superficial and out of place cosmetic enhancements.  And if you think that owner is going to be satisfied with that ballpark in a couple of years after the post world series attendance sags, get real.

And for the record, Davis has threatened to sue Alameda County to get out of the lease almost every season since the renovation.  

[aknowledgeableperson]

negative. there are plenty of areas to set up for vendors outside of kauffman. kauffman, is not the property of the royals. it is the taxpayers property. the royals cannot say no vendors out there. however, the city has ordinances, and it prohibits vendors out there.

Sorry Chef, have to disagree with you on this point.  Kaufman is not the property of the Royals but it is leased by the Royals.  It is like having private property - they control the vendors and not city ordinances.
All of the latest concerning sidewalk vendors in KC had nothing to do with Royals since the property is not a City street.  The sidewalk vendor ordinances control city streets, not private property.

[kcdcchef]

Well booholly, the city is taking it up the ass on account of the Royals, what a suprise.  If the county tried to allow vendors in the lot, either the teams would bitch and moan and get it stopped, or it is already in the leases that it cannot be done.

so, the fact that there are rarely vendors outside one kansas city place or town pavilion is the fault of the royals??? because, there are rarely, if ever, street vendors in the cbd. sure, once in a blue moon, but, they are not there either. hell, i have seen a vendor doing barbecue in the parking lot before a chiefs game, same as the cbd, RARELY. because the ordinances are fucked up. man, you sure blame the royals for a lot of the cities ordinances. perhaps you should consult a therapist on this matter, you have WAAAYY TOOO much hostility and agression towards our royals. wow.  

Sorry Chef, have to disagree with you on this point. Kaufman is not the property of the Royals but it is leased by the Royals. It is like having private property - they control the vendors and not city ordinances.
All of the latest concerning sidewalk vendors in KC had nothing to do with Royals since the property is not a City street. The sidewalk vendor ordinances control city streets, not private property.

either way, the royals are not stopping any vendors from setting up shop on sidewalks at the truman sports complex. and i disagree with this assertion, they lease the property, but where does their property end and begin, that they lease? and if they lease it from the county, the county can say, yes, we want vendors here or there, on our property we own. just like an apartment you lease, the apartment building can come in and say, we are repainting, we are laying new tile. the royals cannot control the vendors on property they do not own. and even if they could, they only lease kauffman, not the whole complex. every time i have been to games there, there are plenty of sidewalks throughout the parking lots, where, vendors could set up, and oh yeah, this all stems from lockandloads talks about vendors in other cities, oh yeah, they are not set up on stadium property there either, sidewalks leading up to them. at oriole park at camden yards, the vendors are on sidewalks, outside the stadium, sidewalks, no less, that are in what limited parking lots they have!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

, pull your head out of your massive ass  

, the city is taking it up the ass  

 considering they are coming out of your ass  

man, you really have a serious ass fettish. wow. and the ass you are so enamoured with is mine. you should again, consult a therapist for this. not only am i not into that, i am married. sorry bro.

Middle of the night or end of the season, the point is they are are using the fear of the team leaving to pass this thing. Once again, pull your head out of your massive ass and understand the point instead of debating the meaningless details.

no, your dumbass said middle of the night. if this fails on april 4th, the teams CAN leave at will, and it will not matter what we are doing as far as a tax goes, if we are applying a band aid with an august vote or november, it will not make 2 shits of a difference what we pass, once the lease is defaulted, it is defaulted, and at that point, both teams can look whereever. and if you think that clark hunt and dan glass have anywhere near as  much loyalty to kc as their daddies, you are crazy.

we had better pass this, because, if it fails, it will leave a bitter taste in the mouth of everyone involved, taxpayers, and the owners.

And for the record, Davis has threatened to sue Alameda County to get out of the lease almost every season since the renovation.  

show a link for that. i do not believe you.

.  And if you think that owner is going to be satisfied with that ballpark in a couple of years after the post world series attendance sags, get real.

this team has made the postseason TWICE since they won the series. their attendance will sag no time soon.

I have been to Anaheim both pre and post renovation and honestly, it was better before - at least before it was just an outdated mid-century ballpark - now it looks like an outdated ballpark tarted up with some very superficial and out of place cosmetic enhancements.  

your opinion. they ran a piece on this on espn2 last month, on how much better of a stadium it is now, and how great it is compared to the dump it was. if you thought that concrete donut with typical collapsible seats for football in center field, was ANYTHING compared to this, you are ALONE. count on that.

[lock+load]

so, the fact that there are rarely vendors outside one kansas city place or town pavilion is the fault of the royals??? because, there are rarely, if ever, street vendors in the cbd. sure, once in a blue moon, but, they are not there either. hell, i have seen a vendor doing barbecue in the parking lot before a chiefs game, same as the cbd, RARELY. because the ordinances are fucked up. man, you sure blame the royals for a lot of the cities ordinances. perhaps you should consult a therapist on this matter, you have WAAAYY TOOO much hostility and agression towards our royals. wow.  


either way, the royals are not stopping any vendors from setting up shop on sidewalks at the truman sports complex.

Who said anything about street vendors in the CBD?  I sure didn't.  And I see them quite often, for the record.  Especially when it is warmer outside, and expecially around Bartle Hall.  It IS the Royals and it IS the Chiefs that are keeping street vendors away from the TSC. 

[kcdcchef]

Well booholly, the city is taking it up the ass on account of the Royals, what a suprise.  If the county tried to allow vendors in the lot, either the teams would bitch and moan and get it stopped, or it is already in the leases that it cannot be done.

here. you said it yourself. the cbd does not have vendors often for the same reason you do not see them near the k. it is one of 2 things, outdated ordinances, or, this is a city that just does not grasp vendors. either way, it has nothing to do with the royals.

Who said anything about street vendors in the CBD? I sure didn't. And I see them quite often, for the record. Especially when it is warmer outside, and expecially around Bartle Hall. It IS the Royals and it IS the Chiefs that are keeping street vendors away from the TSC.

i have seen them at the tsc, though not often. either way, you rarely see them in the cbd in front of office buildings, like in other cities. you see them at bartle, for big conventions. either way, i have seen barbecuing going on outside arrowhead, before, on the sidewalks, with stuff for sale. not often though, either way, it has nothing to do with the royals.