PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
mean
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 10747
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:00 am
Location: Historic Northeast

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by mean » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:44 pm

Those anti-tax people turn people off more than they persuade them, though...
"It is not to my good friend's heresy that I impute his honesty. On the contrary, 'tis his honesty that has brought upon him the character of heretic." -- Ben Franklin

User avatar
kcdcchef
The Quiet Chair
The Quiet Chair
Posts: 8804
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:48 pm
Location: pittsburgh, pennsylvania

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by kcdcchef » Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:11 am

mean wrote:Those anti-tax people turn people off more than they persuade them, though...


yes, they do. the ONLY people they get, are the ones on their side already. those in your face tactics, only work on them.

most people, in eastern jack, are like my parents, and kards and means. and even if they say their minds are made up one way or the other, this is about spending money on stadiums, not the presidency. there is still 3-4 weeks to earn their votes, yes or no.
MU FINISHED THE YEAR RANKED HIGHER IN HOOPS AND FOOTBALL THAN THE KAY U JAYDORKS. UP YOURS KAY U JAYDORK FANS!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

User avatar
bahua
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 10857
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:39 pm
Location: Out of Town
Contact:

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by bahua » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:45 am

Expect things to get nasty.

User avatar
warwickland
Oak Tower
Oak Tower
Posts: 4684
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:29 pm
Location: University City, MO

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by warwickland » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:21 pm

people are getting pretty sick of seeing SAVE THE TEAMS paraphernalia trashing up every street corner and ROW.

User avatar
KCMax
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 24051
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:31 pm
Location: The basement of a Ross Dress for Less
Contact:

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by KCMax » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:08 pm

I just read the KC Star's Sunday piece on the renovations, and I have to admit, if they do pass, I'll support the TSC. They will make the stadiums look cool, although they will still be in the middle of nowhere with no economic activity around it and I'll still feel a downtown stadium will be needed within my lifetime. I still think however, it is an outrage that taxpayers have to pay for this. 75% of what they want done is private party suites, which 99.9% of Jackson County taxpayers will never ever get to benefit from.

But hey, I'm not a Jackson Countians, so don't take my word for it.
SAVE THE PLAZA - FROM ZOMBIES! Find out how at:

http://twitter.com/TheKCRag

lock+load
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4199
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:25 am
Location: brookside

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by lock+load » Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:09 pm

KCMax wrote:I just read the KC Star's Sunday piece on the renovations


A bit of a stretch to call that a "piece."  Was a couple of paragraphs directing you to the renderings. 

User avatar
bahua
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 10857
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:39 pm
Location: Out of Town
Contact:

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by bahua » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:01 pm

I don't see how even adding suites will cost anywhere close to the numbers they've said in the questions or in the propaganda. We're supposed to believe that they *need* the better part of a *billion* dollars to renovate the TSC? That's almost enough money to buy every ticket to every home game at the K, for five years.

That's enough money to pay for the college tuitions of 2500 high school graduates for 20 years.

That's enough money to buy forty thousand cars.

That's enough money to build several new bridges over the Missouri.

That's enough money to finance the construction of a comprehensive light rail system in KCMO.

That's enough money to fund the Yankees for over three years.

That's enough money that I just get ill thinking that the people in my city are willing to just *throw* it away. If it takes extortion and the collapse of basic services, at a tremendous expense to the poor and middle class, for Kansas City to need to be "World Class," then I'll pass on the world recognition, and I'll just settle for repaired streets, good police protection, and giving our floundering school district a fighting chance.

If this city cows to the idea of throwing away untold hundreds of millions of dollars for no other purpose than keeping a baseball team we can't support, then I'm not sure what I like about this town, anymore. This is probably the worst piece of potential law I have ever heard of, and the people in this county are so terrified of losing a baseball team whose games they don't even attend, that they're willing to sell our future away by passing it.

A "yes" vote is a vote for insanity, and a vote against Kansas City.

kucer
Alameda Tower
Alameda Tower
Posts: 1127
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:35 pm
Location: Armour Hills

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by kucer » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:45 pm

well said bahau.  that is essentially how i feel about this whole thing. it is absolutely disgusting. i hope a guy like marty wall, who crows at being from jackson county, sleeps well at night endorsing this piece of crap.  it is a horrible thing for the average people of jackson county. the chiefs and royals are absolutely robbing us and lot's of kansas city folks, including those in the brookside parade, have no problem with it. it's sickening.

shinatoo
One Park Place
One Park Place
Posts: 6110
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:20 pm

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by shinatoo » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:57 pm

bahua wrote:I don't see how even adding suites will cost anywhere close to the numbers they've said in the questions or in the propaganda. We're supposed to believe that they *need* the better part of a *billion* dollars to renovate the TSC? That's almost enough money to buy every ticket to every home game at the K, for five years.

That's enough money to pay for the college tuitions of 2500 high school graduates for 20 years.

That's enough money to buy forty thousand cars.

That's enough money to build several new bridges over the Missouri.

That's enough money to finance the construction of a comprehensive light rail system in KCMO.

That's enough money to fund the Yankees for over three years.

That's enough money that I just get ill thinking that the people in my city are willing to just *throw* it away. If it takes extortion and the collapse of basic services, at a tremendous expense to the poor and middle class, for Kansas City to need to be "World Class," then I'll pass on the world recognition, and I'll just settle for repaired streets, good police protection, and giving our floundering school district a fighting chance.

If this city cows to the idea of throwing away untold hundreds of millions of dollars for no other purpose than keeping a baseball team we can't support, then I'm not sure what I like about this town, anymore. This is probably the worst piece of potential law I have ever heard of, and the people in this county are so terrified of losing a baseball team whose games they don't even attend, that they're willing to sell our future away by passing it.

A "yes" vote is a vote for insanity, and a vote against Kansas City.


That's enough money to run the US Military for a half a day!
Quocunque Jeceris Stabit

lock+load
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4199
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:25 am
Location: brookside

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by lock+load » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:38 pm

bahua wrote:A "yes" vote is a vote for insanity, and a vote against Kansas City.


=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

If the TSC is world class, I want to embrace obscurity.  Very well said.

User avatar
Burton
New York Life
New York Life
Posts: 425
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:36 am

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by Burton » Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:02 pm

bahua wrote:I don't see how even adding suites will cost anywhere close to the numbers they've said in the questions or in the propaganda. We're supposed to believe that they *need* the better part of a *billion* dollars to renovate the TSC? That's almost enough money to buy every ticket to every home game at the K, for five years.

That's enough money to pay for the college tuitions of 2500 high school graduates for 20 years.

That's enough money to buy forty thousand cars.

That's enough money to build several new bridges over the Missouri.

That's enough money to finance the construction of a comprehensive light rail system in KCMO. :D

That's enough money to fund the Yankees for over three years.

That's enough money that I just get ill thinking that the people in my city are willing to just *throw* it away. If it takes extortion and the collapse of basic services, at a tremendous expense to the poor and middle class, for Kansas City to need to be "World Class," then I'll pass on the world recognition, and I'll just settle for repaired streets, good police protection, and giving our floundering school district a fighting chance.

If this city cows to the idea of throwing away untold hundreds of millions of dollars for no other purpose than keeping a baseball team we can't support, then I'm not sure what I like about this town, anymore. This is probably the worst piece of potential law I have ever heard of, and the people in this county are so terrified of losing a baseball team whose games they don't even attend, that they're willing to sell our future away by passing it.

A "yes" vote is a vote for insanity, and a vote against Kansas City.

=D>
Nice post. A 2/3 empty "world class ballpark" in the middle of 19,000 parking spaces of seems a little silly.

aknowledgeableperson
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 12247
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:31 pm

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by aknowledgeableperson » Tue Mar 14, 2006 4:58 am

bahua wrote:If this city cows to the idea of throwing away untold hundreds of millions of dollars for no other purpose than keeping a baseball team we can't support, then I'm not sure what I like about this town, anymore. This is probably the worst piece of potential law I have ever heard of, and the people in this county are so terrified of losing a baseball team whose games they don't even attend, that they're willing to sell our future away by passing it.

A "yes" vote is a vote for insanity, and a vote against Kansas City.


Could say the same about spending hundreds of millions for the Sprint Center, and we do not even have a NBA or NHL team.  And all of those tax abatements for downtown development that forces the city to cut back on services.
I may be right.  I may be wrong.  But there is a lot of gray area in-between.

KCDevin

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by KCDevin » Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:53 am

Sprint Center is different however. It will always be more than 2/3 occupied. Even with Brigade games. Those games pull in about 14,000-16,000 per game?

Sprint Center will be even better than that, it isn't located in the West Bottoms, where there are only a few ways in and out. In Downtown you have surrounding parking garages mixed with the highways and the street grids. There you have 3 bridges to leave Downtown from, plus multiple highways.

Yes a stadium would be great to have Downtown. But a Super Bowl would be far more beneficial than a stadium. Voting yes will give us the largest rolling roof in the world. We have 9 years to prepare for the Super Bowl, it's the year before the Super Bowl's 50th anniversary, etc...
The Super Bowl is a nationally and internationally recognized event. The rolling roof will kind of be our Arch, Needle, Statue, etc... that people can recognize us by. It will increase our hotel space, convention space, etc...

With the Super Bowl, even the vision of the Truman Boulevard project will have a likelihood of happening. For one week we will have over 80,000 people in Kansas City with millions upon millions of eyes on us.

Like they said in the meeting at the Arrowhead Pavilion, do a search on google with Detroit and Super Bowl, you get almost 15 million results...

In the long run, going for renovations is more beneficial to our metro than putting a stadium Downtown.

Voting no insures that all bets are off for any Super Bowl bid, and that comes from Pete Levi...

KCDevin

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by KCDevin » Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:01 am

It's pretty funny how people on here choose to bash the TSC, even because of it's amount of parking and suburban location, etc...

However many of you don't know, Legends/Kansas Speedway is a lot larger than the TSC. In fact, it's almost 2x the size of the TSC.

Image
Last edited by KCDevin on Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Burton
New York Life
New York Life
Posts: 425
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:36 am

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by Burton » Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:21 am

KCDevin, I see a lot of people that bash Village West for it's parking & suburban location.
The Kansas Speedway is a different issue though. There's really no need to bash it because of the sheer size of Nascar Speedways. There's no way you can put them into Urban Core's, so empty fields out in the burbs are ideal locations for them.

lock+load
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4199
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:25 am
Location: brookside

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by lock+load » Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:38 am

aknowledgeableperson wrote: And all of those tax abatements for downtown development that forces the city to cut back on services.


Because those vacant downtown properties were generating a lot of tax revenue before the abated redevelopment?  ](*,)

User avatar
QueSi2Opie
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 3864
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2002 2:05 pm
Location: Hangin' with the cons, crazies, and crackheads on 11th & Grand.

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by QueSi2Opie » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:39 am

While I would love a baseball stadium in downtown, what's the use of crying about it if only 33% of Jackson County residents support it?  My biggest fear is that the state of Kansas will step up and build a stadium for the Chiefs, Royals, or both if Jackson County (Missouri) residents fail to vote for keeping their stadiums "world-class".  Why stay in a city of slumlords when these team owners can move to Johnson County where their landlords take care of their shit?  The worst case scenerio is that the teams leave the metro entirely which will literally kill Sunday grocery stores sales, liquor store sales, sports bar and restaurant business, and "Red Friday" celebrations in City Market, etc. Remember, it isn't David Glass and the Royals threatening to leave KC.  You can guarantee sales to drop and businesses to close in the suburbs if the teams go.  Yeah, we're supporting rich owners the same way JaCo and JoCo divert important money away from schools, libraries, parks, roads, etc. so big business owners will relocate to their city.  If you want the teams, you pay for them.  But if you don't care about the teams or the status they give your cowtown, then tell them to "fuck off!"
The Pendergast Poltergeist Project!

I finally divorced beer and proposed to whiskey, but I occassionally cheat with fine wine.

lock+load
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4199
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:25 am
Location: brookside

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by lock+load » Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:56 am

QueSi2Opie wrote:While I would love a baseball stadium in downtown, what's the use of crying about it if only 33% of Jackson County residents support it?  My biggest fear is that the state of Kansas will step up and build a stadium for the Chiefs, Royals, or both if Jackson County (Missouri) residents fail to vote for keeping their stadiums "world-class".  Why stay in a city of slumlords when these team owners can move to Johnson County where their landlords take care of their shit?  The worst case scenerio is that the teams leave the metro entirely which will literally kill Sunday grocery stores sales, liquor store sales, sports bar and restaurant business, and "Red Friday" celebrations in City Market, etc. Remember, it isn't David Glass and the Royals threatening to leave KC.  You can guarantee sales to drop and businesses to close in the suburbs if the teams go.  Yeah, we're supporting rich owners the same way JaCo and JoCo divert important money away from schools, libraries, parks, roads, etc. so big business owners will relocate to their city.  If you want the teams, you pay for them.  But if you don't care about the teams or the status they give your cowtown, then tell them to "fuck off!"


Sounds like you've been drinking the Kool-aid.

User avatar
tat2kc
Bryant Building
Bryant Building
Posts: 4196
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:32 pm
Location: freighthouse district
Contact:

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by tat2kc » Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:41 am

Pro: the stadiums will be upgraded.

con: The county will be in default on the current leases, which are very old, at the end of this year. By failing to provide the maintenance and upgrades in a timely manner, the county has placed itself in jeopardy of allowing the teams out of the lease.  The leases aren't new, they knew full well we were about to default on the leases and waited till the last moment to try and get funds for a project that should have been handled years ago.  I feel that this borders on blackmail by the county.  The cost of providing the improvements we are committed to providing is less than $100 million. Rather than provide what is already called for, they county and the owners are demanding much much more, and then telling us that we have no choice if we want to keep the teams. 

If the team or teams do leave, it won't be due to the failure of the two proposals. It will be due to the fact that the county failed to live up to their obligations in maintenance.  Defferred maintenence is causing the KCMO and Jackson county citizens in excess of a billion dollars, and its pissing me off.
Are you sure we're talking about the same God here, because yours sounds kind of like a dick.

User avatar
kcdcchef
The Quiet Chair
The Quiet Chair
Posts: 8804
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:48 pm
Location: pittsburgh, pennsylvania

Re: PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

Post by kcdcchef » Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:43 pm

QueSi2Opie wrote:While I would love a baseball stadium in downtown, what's the use of crying about it if only 33% of Jackson County residents support it?  My biggest fear is that the state of Kansas will step up and build a stadium for the Chiefs, Royals, or both if Jackson County (Missouri) residents fail to vote for keeping their stadiums "world-class".  Why stay in a city of slumlords when these team owners can move to Johnson County where their landlords take care of their shit?  The worst case scenerio is that the teams leave the metro entirely which will literally kill Sunday grocery stores sales, liquor store sales, sports bar and restaurant business, and "Red Friday" celebrations in City Market, etc. Remember, it isn't David Glass and the Royals threatening to leave KC.  You can guarantee sales to drop and businesses to close in the suburbs if the teams go.  Yeah, we're supporting rich owners the same way JaCo and JoCo divert important money away from schools, libraries, parks, roads, etc. so big business owners will relocate to their city.  If you want the teams, you pay for them.  But if you don't care about the teams or the status they give your cowtown, then tell them to "fuck off!"




well the thing is this................glass is not saying he will leave. hunt is. here is what is real scary.........

if we lost the chiefs to kck or anywhere else, glass would have a HUGE bargaining position at that point.
MU FINISHED THE YEAR RANKED HIGHER IN HOOPS AND FOOTBALL THAN THE KAY U JAYDORKS. UP YOURS KAY U JAYDORK FANS!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

Locked