PROs and CONs of Question 1 and Question 2

[shaffe]

the important thing to realize is that in order for either team to go anywhere, it will take a long time to do it.  unless they have deals pre-negociated (chiefs to wyco?), there is a lot to do that can't even start until the summer.  people should not vote yes in april soley because they think the teams will bolt on april 4.

[kcdcchef]

the important thing to realize is that in order for either team to go anywhere, it will take a long time to do it.  unless they have deals pre-negociated (chiefs to wyco?), there is a lot to do that can't even start until the summer.  people should not vote yes in april soley because they think the teams will bolt on april 4.

no, you are right, they will not go anywhere april 5th, but, they sure as hell could.

but, does anyone really want to let it get to that point? just because everyone is pissed off the downtown stadium is not happening?

[kucer]

lots of folks now call kc home that didn't grow up here and would like to see this city evolve.  you guys waxing nostalgic about tailgaiting in a parking lot need to realize there is more to a major league city than that.  most major league cities would have tailgating at one of their sporting events wayyy down the list needs.  with this current "deal", you guys put that ahead of ...well...basic current day civilization.  schools, roads, public transportation, ...whatever.  voting yes tells the world that we care more about cooking a hot dog on a grill in a parking lot than our kids and our city.

people voting yes actually either believe this fear campaign or don't care about giving fellow jackson county residents and their kids a solid start or chance. just so they can conveinently go cook a braut at a stadium that you saw G Brett in his heyday and get home quickly.  this deal is terrible.

[warwickland]

i dont get the preoccupation with KC needing pro sports so badly that it's ok to be held hostage like this, either. apparently, that is all this city is worth to a good chunk of the population. i think of the things that can be done with a billion dollars, or even half that, and i become very angry. i'm voting no.

this city has some screwed up priorities if this passes. strike two.

[QueSi2Opie]

lots of folks now call kc home that didn't grow up here and would like to see this city evolve.  you guys waxing nostalgic about tailgaiting in a parking lot need to realize there is more to a major league city than that.  most major league cities would have tailgating at one of their sporting events wayyy down the list needs.  with this current "deal", you guys put that ahead of ...well...basic current day civilization.  schools, roads, public transportation, ...whatever.  voting yes tells the world that we care more about cooking a hot dog on a grill in a parking lot than our kids and our city.

people voting yes actually either believe this fear campaign or don't care about giving fellow jackson county residents and their kids a solid start or chance. just so they can conveinently go cook a braut at a stadium that you saw G Brett in his heyday and get home quickly.  this deal is terrible.

There's also more important things than giving tax abatements to condo developers, entertainment districts, and area businesses.  What's your point?  You pay for world-class, otherwise we can be a nice lil' city like Wichita, Tulsa, or Des Moines.  There's always more important things than professional sports, performing arts centers, museums, memorials, and zoos.  

Keeping the teams has less to do with tailgating and more to do with the things I've mentioned previously in this thread and others.  Many of my neighbors and myself have social gatherings on game days.  We never go to a game at the the TSC, yet we spend a ton of money at the grocery store and liquor store, standing in long lines with other people that don't go to the TSC, jus' so we can cook and drink at home with friends and root for the home team on television.  Sometimes we even decide to go out and drink/dine at Tanner's, or 810 Zone, or Amerisports, etc. jus' to watch the game with other fans that don't go to the TSC.  It's an regional event for anyone that has any pride for their city and sports.

I'm gonna start goin' to the Orlando Forums, or Pittsburgh Forums, or one of the other city forums that are in danger of losing their pro teams.  Maybe I can convince them that other things are more important and they will lose their NBA or NHL team to Kansas City (Sprint Center).    

[warwickland]

the last time i checked, this wasnt a vote to keep the teams, regardless of the [glow=red,2,300]scary[/glow] propaganda splattered around jackson county. 

[QueSi2Opie]

i dont get the preoccupation with KC needing pro sports so badly that it's ok to be held hostage like this, either.

Held hostage?!?!  Stop being a damn slumlord!  Why renovate something half-assed when other cities are willing to do so much more?  You don't have to vote for the rolling roof, I'm not even fully convinced on that one, but at least keep our stadiums in good shape and add modern amenities such as more restrooms and concessions, wider concourses, better scoreboards, etc.  Either that, or move to Clay or Platte County where those Kansas Citians don't care about Kansas City.

[shaffe]

...move to Clay or Platte County where those Kansas Citians don't care about Kansas City.

ok, i'll flame.

and what gives you the impression that every platte and clay county citizen doesn't care about kansas city?

[QueSi2Opie]

ok, i'll flame.

and what gives you the impression that every platte and clay county citizen doesn't care about kansas city?

The same as those with the belief that everyone in Johnson County doesn't care about Kansas City, even though 40% (or 4 in 10) voted "yes" on BiState II. 

[lock+load]

Why renovate something half-assed when other cities are willing to do so much more?  

You've presented my argument for me.  Why?  Other cities have moved into the 21st century and realize a ballpark can be a piece of the urban fabric, and we are still stuck on wanting a giant roof to rool across the parking lot over out isolated stadiums.  We could have something much better.

You can't get together for reasons other than a game?  While you're enjoying your friends and beer and game on TV in Johnson County, there are thousands in Jackson county who can afford none of it, yet are the ones actually paying the tax to fund the stadium upgrades you advocate.  Priorities out of whack.

This is twice now you've disparaged tax abatements for downtown condos.  What exactly is being lost here?  There was nothing generating tax revenue to start with.  They are not losing revenue, just not adding it. 

[Burton]

We never go to a game at the the TSC, yet we spend a ton of money at the grocery store and liquor store, standing in long lines with other people that don't go to the TSC, jus' so we can cook and drink at home with friends and root for the home team on television.  

Typical Kansas City right here. Lets pass this tax so we can watch the games and see the 700 million dollar plus investment on the teluhvishun, while we drown ourselves in Natty Light. 
And your grocery stores and liquor stores will not go out of business if our stadiums are located somewhere else other than TSC.

[kcdcchef]

lots of folks now call kc home that didn't grow up here and would like to see this city evolve.  you guys waxing nostalgic about tailgaiting in a parking lot need to realize there is more to a major league city than that.  most major league cities would have tailgating at one of their sporting events wayyy down the list needs.  with this current "deal", you guys put that ahead of ...well...basic current day civilization.  schools, roads, public transportation, ...whatever.  voting yes tells the world that we care more about cooking a hot dog on a grill in a parking lot than our kids and our city.

people voting yes actually either believe this fear campaign or don't care about giving fellow jackson county residents and their kids a solid start or chance. just so they can conveinently go cook a braut at a stadium that you saw G Brett in his heyday and get home quickly.  this deal is terrible.

who in the hell on this site is voting yes to be able to tailgate? you mention not caring about fellow jackson county residents, it is people like you that do not care about them. why?? there are over 25,000 of the signs for s.o.s. distributed now. you see their endorsements? every union in the area, and that represents A LOT OF WORKERS, has endorsed. the goverment, on all levels has. chambers of commerce, which, is a LOT OF BUSINESS PEOPLE, in grandview, blue springs, independence, kansas city, and a few others, have supported this. so, those are sheer numbers there kucer, that is a big majority of people who are supporting this. these unions, and chambers of commerce, cannot give support to something without first voting, and they are doing that, and the majority of people are saying yes. the kc chamber, said, it would require 3/4 of thier members to vote yes, for them to endorse. the downtown council, voted 28-4. so, not caring about other jackson county residents, would be the minority of you guys trying to force an issue, that the city, the goverment, the team owners, do not want. why push for it?

You've presented my argument for me. Why? Other cities have moved into the 21st century and realize a ballpark can be a piece of the urban fabric, and we are still stuck on wanting a giant roof to rool across the parking lot over out isolated stadiums. We could have something much better.

You can't get together for reasons other than a game? While you're enjoying your friends and beer and game on TV in Johnson County, there are thousands in Jackson county who can afford none of it, yet are the ones actually paying the tax to fund the stadium upgrades you advocate. Priorities out of whack.

no, we cannot have something so much better. not possible. not for this amount of money. and oh yeah, the owners do not want it, the goverment, on all levels, does not want it, the chambers of commerce in all the neighboring cities, do not want it, and there are more signs in everyones yards, and in windows of businesses, that say, yes, we are voting yes. speak for the minority you represent, not the masses.

even if this fails on april 4th, which, it might, all that will do is prolong it. glass, and hunt, will not get behind leaving the tsc. period. steadman may have ran his mouth, but the hunt boys, have not.

[Burton]

Chef, there were alot of city governments, chambers of commerce, and ordinary Joe's that were for Urban Renewal projects in the 1960's too. The popular thing isn't always the best thing in the big picture.

[kcdcchef]

Chef, there were alot of city governments, chambers of commerce, and ordinary Joe's that were for Urban Renewal projects in the 1960's too. The popular thing isn't always the best thing in the big picture.

i do not understand this argument. the large masses in kc and jackson county, in the 1960's, were for the new tsc, not saving munie. urban renewal, would have by definition, saving municipal.

so, even though it is popular, it is not the best thing for kc. the best thing for kc would be to do something that the overwhelming majority does not want. intresting..................

[Burton]

The Urban Renewal point I was making didn't have anything to do with TSC or Municipal. Just saying that alot of mayors, businesses, chambers of commerce, unions, and ordinary taxpayers in lots of different places were overwhelmingly for Urban Renewal. Turns out, Urban Renewal wasn't such a good idea, so the "popular" thing at the time isn't always the best thing to do to cities, even if the "overwhelming majority" is for it. Not saying that this will turn out bad, or that the "overwhelming majority" is wrong, just pointing out that sometimes the popular thing isn't always right.
Hope that was clear enough for you.

[kcdcchef]

The Urban Renewal point I was making didn't have anything to do with TSC or Municipal. Just saying that alot of mayors, businesses, chambers of commerce, unions, and ordinary taxpayers in lots of different places were overwhelmingly for Urban Renewal. Turns out, Urban Renewal wasn't such a good idea, so the "popular" thing at the time isn't always the best thing to do to cities, even if the "overwhelming majority" is for it. Not saying that this will turn out bad, or that the "overwhelming majority" is wrong, just pointing out that sometimes the popular thing isn't always right.
Hope that was clear enough for you.

it was clear enough the first time, my point was it has little if anything to do with this discussion. you have a group of starry eyed dreamers that are making just enough noise that everyone will kind of sorta psuedo listen, but, what they are making racket about, makes no sense.

and generally speaking, when the numers are in favor of something as much as they are here, that usually says it all.

[Burton]

it was clear enough the first time, my point was it has little if anything to do with this discussion.

I think it's pretty relevant, when you're continually trying to make the argument that because the mayor, chambers of commerce, businesses, and unions are telling us that it's the right thing to do, that it is the right thing to do in the big picture. My point is that the same thing happened in the 60's with Urban Renewal, and just because certain people are saying it's right, doesn't mean it will be in the end.
And just because you don't agree with me, doesn't mean my point has little to do with the discussion or has no significance to the topic at hand.

[QueSi2Opie]

This is twice now you've disparaged tax abatements for downtown condos.  What exactly is being lost here?  There was nothing generating tax revenue to start with.  They are not losing revenue, just not adding it. 

Abated property taxes or corporate welfare that could have paid for schools, parks, libraries, and other public services.  But I see the long term benefit for the city, just like renovating the TSC. 

Typical Kansas City right here. Lets pass this tax so we can watch the games and see the 700 million dollar plus investment on the teluhvishun, while we drown ourselves in Natty Light. 
And your grocery stores and liquor stores will not go out of business if our stadiums are located somewhere else other than TSC.

Natty Light has only touched my taste buds once, and that was at a backwoods bar in the Appalachians. And if I sound "typical" Kansas Citian, I am.  I was born here, I grew up here, but I can guarantee that I have more culture in my left testicle than the majority of the population in these other Midwestern cities.  The fact is that Americans love sports, competition, and recognition on game day. 

You can pretend that the loss of the Chiefs won't hurt area businesses (and charities), but imagine shopping malls without our beloved commercialized Christmas.  The larger stores would be okay, but the smaller ones would struggle.  Four months of football makes quite a big difference, especially in the competitive or oversaturated markets.  It's a major metrowide event that produces social gatherings, business and neighborhood parties, along with other community festivities. 

Oh yeah, anyone see that KCSKYSCRAPERS.COM was mentioned in today's KC Star?       

[KCMax]

Oh yeah, anyone see that KCSKYSCRAPERS.COM was mentioned in today's KC Star?     

Really? Where? I got an email from Jeffrey Spivak asking for a few quotes yesterday but declined.

[lock+load]

Oh yeah, anyone see that KCSKYSCRAPERS.COM was mentioned in today's KC Star?     

Really? Where? I got an email from Jeffrey Spivak asking for a few quotes yesterday but declined.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascit ... 100183.htm


Not everyone thinks the community should take those steps, however. This month’s announcement of Kansas City’s potential Super Bowl date unleashed a torrent of opinions on a Web site devoted to Kansas City’s progress, www.kcskyscrapers.com. Several dozen people argued back and forth in a Web forum.
Said one post: “I’m not too crazy about holding a Super Bowl in a place that has winter, roof or not, but I can’t change the NFL’s mind, so I think having one here would (be) very cool. But … a one-weekend event isn’t worth the hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars they’re asking.â€