Downtown Council, Mayor Barnes supporting TSC renovations?

[LenexatoKCMO]

I figure that the DT stadium supporters are not supporting this roof is because it gives the TSC something that downtown cannot and will not have.

sure thats the ticket 

Roof envy!

My Ass

[Burton]

Well sorry,
But I belive its better than making hoax profiles and screennames to prove my point.  You need a major reality check.  You are the childish one...

I'm not sure what you are getting at with this post. Do you need a mod to run an IP check on me?

[lock+load]

I figure that the DT stadium supporters are not supporting this roof is because it gives the TSC something that downtown cannot and will not have.

It really doesn't matter because downtown park supporters will vote no on question one, rendering the rolling roof a moot point.  You are right though, it will be a great asset to the city to have a giant roof over an event plaza in the middle of a giant parking lot.  I am sure events like the Plaza art fair will jump at the opportunity to use this new event plaza.  Maybe we can have the St. Patricks Day parade under it.  Wait..Fourth of July. Fireworks would look great under the roof in our new "Events Plaza."  Damn, I cannot believe I didn't think of the possibilities before.  Maybe a yes vote is the way to go!

[aknowledgeableperson]

And if the prospect of getting a political convention is one of the big lures to building this, sorry to burst your bubble, but those things aren't held in suburban domes, they're held in arenas with large amounts of convention space and hotels nearby, which is what we're about to have in downtown within the next few years. We could have a retractable roof for Arrowhead only for cheaper than 200 million, and still get your super bowls and final fours.

A retractable roof would be more expensive than the rolling roof.  Arrowhead was not designed for one and those modifications, if possible, are costly.  Believe a study was done a few years ago for this prospect.

And I hate to burst your bubble but the political conventions bus many of the attendees to the venue so having nearby hotels is not a necessity.  In fact, having a convention at TSC may be more secure than a downtown location - easier to control crowds.  And any large/medium convention in KC has to bus people.  How do you think people get to Bartle from Crown Center and the Plaza?  Been to conventions in Orlando and New Orleans at the respective convention centers and buses were used and these conventions were not all that big.

[Burton]

Houston has a roof because of the heat.  They were able to have Sunday evening games in order to avoid the afternoon sun.  Seattle has rain around 180 to 200 days a year.  Milwaukee can be very cold early and late in the season.  Phoenix, see Houston for the heat.  To do glass panels for a stadium that was not designed for it would be more expensive than the proposed rolling roof.
But when the roof is not over the stadiums it will be over the area between them.  There are plans for this area to be an Event Plaza.  This could be a great asset to the city.
Although the Royals do not need the roof they will use it, if needed.  Yes, the rain can come in the sides but the infield will be more or less protected.  Enough that play can continue.

Yeah, you are right about those cities having more weather related issues than KC. But why does the K need a roof, Dan Glass even said back in November, that the threat of 2-3 rainouts a year, doesn't warrant the need for a roof over Kauffman.

Arrowhead can have a retractable roof for less than 100 million, instead of a rolling roof that would hardly get any use at the K for 200 million. Not sure that the extra 110 million dollars is worth it.
Cleveland Browns: 90 million retractable roof
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/7056180/detail.html
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/inde ... 2006021624

[Burton]

And I hate to burst your bubble but the political conventions bus many of the attendees to the venue so having nearby hotels is not a necessity.  In fact, having a convention at TSC may be more secure than a downtown location - easier to control crowds.  And any large/medium convention in KC has to bus people.  How do you think people get to Bartle from Crown Center and the Plaza?  Been to conventions in Orlando and New Orleans at the respective convention centers and buses were used and these conventions were not all that big.

The logistics of bussing people between Bartle and Crown Center is much different than bussing them from DT to TSC. I got no problem with bussing people, heck I'm all for increasing public transportation use, but the costs to businesses, organizations, political parties is much more efficient to have their conventions and events where people can walk, bus, taxi, or ride rail between the convention/event center, hotels, restaurants, and attractions all in close proximity. You might be right, and maybe it could be done, I just can't envision a convention full of white collar businesspeople/politicians being too excited about riding a city bus at night back and forth between TSC and downtown.
I think the Sprint Center, along with the addition to Bartle, the space in Municipal, and the hotels downtown will be more than enough to draw high profile conventions to KC.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Because of the demand for hotels before, during, and even after these political conventions busing of workers and conventioneers is a given, no matter what city it is in.  So riding a bus/taxi/limo is a given for many involved would be no different in KC than just about any other city.  So the white collar business people/politicians know that this is the price one pays to attend.

[Burton]

I see your point here, and I don't disagree, but what makes TSC a better place for a convention than what we'll have in downtown KC in about 2 years??? DT already has the infrastructure, hotels, businesses, restaurants, and nearby attractions in place. If you want a roof over arrowhead for a superbowl or final four, fine by me, but using political conventions as a reason for it just doesn't make much sense to me. And I appreciate you being sensible with your arguements.

[aknowledgeableperson]

It is quite possible that the Sprint Center is not large enough to house a convention.  And to put it into Bartle Hall means that the complex would not be usable for other purposes a few months beforehand and a month afterwards to allow for construction/setup and the teardown afterwards.  If the Wizards have their own stadium to play in then Arrowhead would be ideal since would not be used in the summertime.  The Chiefs might lose two preseason games but that would be all.  For the area TSC would be the best place for the convention.

[kcdcchef]

Now you're just coming off like a bitter old man with a slight tinge of jealousy. Before you keep trying to post your facts on here, please do some research first. Tropicana stadium was completed in March of 1990, which would make it 16 years old not 14. And its a dull, dreary, concrete enveloped mistake, which draws dead last in attendance, and if you'll read the following from ballparks.com http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/american/tropic.htm
"The Devil Rays have not had much success at Tropicana Field, either on the field or at the box office. MLB has made it known to the team that they must be out of their current facility by 2010."
So YES, Tampa Bay will be in the market for a new stadium. As for Toronto, the Skydome opened in 1989, which would make it 17 years old, not 15 as you said. You've already posted about how it was built for 600 million, and recently sold for only 25 million, so I figured you'd already see that as a sign that it's no longer a profitable venue for the BlueJays. It's also a concrete donut design that you loathe and detest so much, and it's multipurpose function is not suitable for baseball games, like you've mentioned with Riverfront, ThreeRivers, Busch, Fulton County, Veterans, Jack Murphy, Kingdome, and the Astrodome. So YES, there's a good chance that Toronto will be in the market for a new stadium within the next 10 years.

As for minor league stadiums, Springfield just got a new one for 32 million, Charleston just got one for 23 million, Corpus Christi just got one for 27 million, I could go on and on because there are way more minor league towns than there are major league towns, so in essence the market for minor league stadiums is far more lucritive than major league markets.

HOK Sport Venue Event, HTNB, 360, Ellerbe Beckett, all design alot more structures than just ballparks. They won't go out of business if every MLB town and NFL town has a new stadium.

Chef, please come correct with your stats, because with blatantly wrong stats and facts, your opinions hold no weight. And getting schooled on your wrong facts by a college kid that apparently has no future isn't doing much for your credibility.

yeah, at least i try. more than you

i see akp has kept you busy all day. bottom line, tampa and toronto are not asking for new parks. perhaps you can email them and let them know you want them to build a new one, who knows, you might get lucky.

Chef had credibility? That is news to me. He makes up statistics to defend his positions. Maybe pulls numbers out of his ass is a better way to phrase it. But he is good at it, and can write some lengthy posts with it fantasy land stats.

[Burton]

yeah, at least i try. more than you

i see akp has kept you busy all day. bottom line, tampa and toronto are not asking for new parks. perhaps you can email them and let them know you want them to build a new one, who knows, you might get lucky.

I guess you didn't read what I posted in bold, the MLB is forcing them out of Tropicana, it doesn't matter if they're asking or not. If they don't build a new one, the MLB will either contract them, or force them to move just like they did with the Expos.
As for Toronto, they might not be asking specifically for a new stadium right now, but if they continue to draw in the bottom third of the league in attendance in their relatively young, but already out of date cookie cutter dome, I'll stick with my assessment that they'll either be threatening to move or building new within the next 10 years.
Again, please come correct with your facts and stats, and I won't have to keep calling you out. Just be man enough to admit your mistakes, and we can move on from pety arguements.

[im2kull]

I guess you didn't read what I posted in bold, the MLB is forcing them out of Tropicana, it doesn't matter if they're asking or not. If they don't build a new one, the MLB will either contract them, or force them to move just like they did with the Expos.
As for Toronto, they might not be asking specifically for a new stadium right now, but if they continue to draw in the bottom third of the league in attendance in their relatively young, but already out of date cookie cutter dome, I'll stick with my assessment that they'll either be threatening to move or building new within the next 10 years.
Again, please come correct with your facts and stats, and I won't have to keep calling you out. Just be man enough to admit your mistakes, and we can move on from pety arguements.

Whats your point...the MLB IS making them move, out of a horrific, cookie cutter indoor stadium (you said it first) with no options for renovation...

The difference IS kauffman is renovatable and is already not a cookie cutter, which means it doesnt piss off the ML's front office...

Once again, you have absolutely nothing worth posting, common sense people, common sense...

[Burton]

It is quite possible that the Sprint Center is not large enough to house a convention.  And to put it into Bartle Hall means that the complex would not be usable for other purposes a few months beforehand and a month afterwards to allow for construction/setup and the teardown afterwards.  If the Wizards have their own stadium to play in then Arrowhead would be ideal since would not be used in the summertime.  The Chiefs might lose two preseason games but that would be all.  For the area TSC would be the best place for the convention.

2000
Republican Convention: Wachovia Center in Philly. Basketball Seating Capacity = 21,600  160 suites
Democratic Convention: Staples Center in LA. Basketball Seating Capacity = 20,000  126 suites

2004
Republican Convention: MSG in New York City. Basketball Seating Capacity = 19,763  89 suites
Democratic Convention: TD Banknorth Garden in Boston. Basketball Seating Capacity = 18,624  104 suites

Sprint Center Basketball Seating Capacity = 18,449  72 suites

Sprint is about the same as Boston, and I don't think its so much smaller than Philly, LA, and NYC, that it'd make that huge of a difference. I think if you combine all the space at Sprint Center, Municipal, and Bartle, along with KCLive, all the hotels, restaurants, and businesses all within walking distance, downtown is a much more attractive convention spot.

[Burton]

Whats your point...the MLB IS making them move, out of a horrific, cookie cutter indoor stadium (you said it first) with no options for renovation...

The difference IS kauffman is renovatable and is already not a cookie cutter, which means it doesnt piss off the ML's front office...

Once again, you have absolutely nothing worth posting, common sense people, common sense...

Sorry you have misunderstood, nowhere have I compared Kauffman to Tropicana. All I was pointing out was that there is still going to be a market for architectural firms to be designing new ballparks within the next 10 years. I am glad however, that you agree that Tropicana will be replaced soon, and agree that Chef is wrong with his facts again. You can start stalking somebody elses posts to throw your insults at now, thank you.

[im2kull]

2000
Republican Convention: Wachovia Center in Philly. Basketball Seating Capacity = 21,600  160 suites
Democratic Convention: Staples Center in LA. Basketball Seating Capacity = 20,000  126 suites

2004
Republican Convention: MSG in New York City. Basketball Seating Capacity = 19,763  89 suites
Democratic Convention: TD Banknorth Garden in Boston. Basketball Seating Capacity = 18,624  104 suites

Sprint Center Basketball Seating Capacity = 18,449  72 suites

Sprint is about the same as Boston, and I don't think its so much smaller than Philly, LA, and NYC, that it'd make that huge of a difference. I think if you combine all the space at Sprint Center, Municipal, and Bartle, along with KCLive, all the hotels, restaurants, and businesses all within walking distance, downtown is a much more attractive convention spot.

Good, Im glad we agree on something (meaning just the above, dont take words I havent said)

Except the sprint center if it holds that much for bball, then the actual cap. for seating for the convention would be closer to 19,500..

But all in all, DT will be great even without a DT baseball stadium, there can literally easily and very likely be 50,000+ people in our DT at once...visitors, not counting condo dwellers

Convention(s) @ Bartle
Game @ Sprint
Entertainment district
Party at Bartle Hall Ball
Roo's game @ Muni
Circus @ Kemper
..and im sure im missing plenty

[im2kull]

Sorry you have misunderstood, nowhere have I compared Kauffman to Tropicana....

This is a TSC thread...I assumed you had already noticed that, oh well, back to work!

[Burton]

This is a TSC thread...I assumed you had already noticed that, oh well, back to work!

Yeah I know, I was just taking time to point out more of Chef's factual errors. Good to know we agree on some things. 

[kcdcchef]

I guess you didn't read what I posted in bold, the MLB is forcing them out of Tropicana, it doesn't matter if they're asking or not. If they don't build a new one, the MLB will either contract them, or force them to move just like they did with the Expos.
As for Toronto, they might not be asking specifically for a new stadium right now, but if they continue to draw in the bottom third of the league in attendance in their relatively young, but already out of date cookie cutter dome, I'll stick with my assessment that they'll either be threatening to move or building new within the next 10 years.
Again, please come correct with your facts and stats, and I won't have to keep calling you out. Just be man enough to admit your mistakes, and we can move on from pety arguements.

what fucken mistakes dude? show me one goddamn article in PRINT IN ANY PAPER ANYWHERE that shows where mlb is forcing the rays or the jays or any team out of their stadium. the only team in dire straits right now is the florida marlins, and, they are pressing other cities, namely charlotte, portland, and vegas, about new digs. either way, same shit different day in south florida, the marlins will keep flirting with other cities, and once they actually get one of them to make an offer, miami will finally come through. and the stadium will get designed by some architect that has been working with hntb or hok for decades, not someone right out of college.

so, call this out. there are two teams in florida that need new stadiums, although, as of now, only 1 is seeking one. does tampa also need one? sure. how it affects you since you will not desigin it, i do not know. so, you have called out not one damn thing.

Yeah I know, I was just taking time to point out more of Chef's factual errors. Good to know we agree on some things.

factual errors. yeah. sure. you are the one who said toronto would be in that class in the next 10 years. bullspit. no team is looking to leave their stadium in this new era of stadium building, after 15 years. and do not be suprised if tampa opts to renovate tropicana versus build new. do not be suprised AT ALL. so, you have not pointed out one damn thing, other then i failed to mention tampa. the yankees, and mets, already have new ballparks designed. so does minnesotta, however, funding is not finalized. the one damn team you can reach for here, is miami. tampa, is in a 15 year old park, that, at best, will get renovated. and there is no way that the rogers center in toronto will be obsolete, as it is only 15 years old, or 16, who cares beyond you and this little cloak and dagger fact finding mission you are on, and just got new turf, new jumbo tron, and new wall screens. so, how they would need new digs, is beyond me. that stadium was considered a marvel of engineering just 10 years ago. so, factual errors, yeah, you made a BIG OPINIONATED ONE THERE.

This is a TSC thread...I assumed you had already noticed that, oh well, back to work!

no, he does not. he thinks it is where he can bash my cooking degree that i spent $74,000 on, and brag on how he will be one of the first ever college graduates in the history of america to walk out of school, and into the best possible job in the country designing new stadiums ( any of you on here who do urban planning and architecture want to respond to that??? ) either way, this does not need to be a personal match. we all know which cities are getting renovated, and which are pursuing new. there is no fact to dispute, except, perhaps tampa, who, is up in the air because the franchise sucks wind.

bottom line, this thread is about the truman sports complex, and how the voters of jackson county in 1967 voted to build 2 state of the art stadiums that stood the test of time as the two most magnificent stadiums in mlb and nfl for like 18 seasons, and even after the new wave of new stadiums, you know what..............there are still ballparks.com and espn.com studies that say they are both still top 10 respectively. care to wager where the renovations will put them?????

[Burton]

You ask, I give...

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/06/10/Rays/ ... __se.shtml
"I think the Devil Rays right now with their ownership, the new system and everything else are positioned right, and sometime in the future they're going to have to think about a new stadium." -Bud Selig

Yankees and Mets have had designs in place for the past few years now, both of these designs have undergone changes. And nothing is signed and solid on them yet.

Say what you want about Skydome, but it's just another concrete cookie-cutter that is continually drawing in the bottom third of the league. I'm not stating that Toronto WILL be getting a new stadium, I'm just saying it's my opinion that it's likey they'll be looking for one. Here's my exact quote from a previous post...
"Toronto, Tampa Bay, New York (Mets not approved yet), Los Angeles, Miami (or wherever they move), all are MLB markets which could have new stadiums within the next 10 years."

Never bashed your cooking education, in fact I said it was quite impressive, just saying that I'll take what I've learned from people with doctorals in Urban Planning and Architecture, along with people that work in this field against whatever education, or lack thereof you've had on the subject.

But if you want me to answer what mistakes, I'll start with your assertion that KC is more auto-dependant than Atlanta...
http://www.transact.org/report.asp?id=42
Your claim that Skydome is 15 years old and Tropicana is 14 years old...
http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/american/skydom.htm    http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/american/tropic.htm

Should I go on, do you want me to go back more pages in this thread to find more of your descrepencies? It's one thing to be Pro-Renovation, but to use false stats and facts just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about, which again is why I'll take what I've learned in 4.5 years of Urban Planning & Architecture classes against your whacky stats and information. Other than that, if you want to continue being bitter, jealous, and downright rude about my education and career path, instead of encouraging a young person interested in these things, then that's your choice, and will only make others take you less seriously.

[kcdcchef]

what descrepencies burton? you dug out a news story that is TWO YEARS OLD saying bud selig says the rays need new digs? wow, so, when i dig up a news story that says selig backs the royals staying in a renovated kauffman ( which, he has ) will you finally shut up on kauffman, or will you keep beating the shit out of a dead horse??

you've had on the subject.

But if you want me to answer what mistakes, I'll start with your assertion that KC is more auto-dependant than Atlanta...
http://www.transact.org/report.asp?id=42
Your claim that Skydome is 15 years old and Tropicana is 14 years old...
http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/american/skydom.htm http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/american/tropic.htm

wow, i am a year off on both, 16, 15, WHO THE FUCK CARES BEYOND YOU WHICH STADIUM IS A YEAR OLDER THEN WHAT I SAID?? I AM A YEAR OFF, GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

god dude, give it up. 17, or 16, 15, who friecking cares??? you!!! either way, you have yet to back up that ridiculous ass garbage you said about the blue jays wanting a new stadium. not one shred of anything to back it up. nothing. you found an article on the devil rays, or rays, or whatever their name du jour is, either way, i asked you to put up something saying the team, and the city, had said it. you have still failed to do that.

Say what you want about Skydome, but it's just another concrete cookie-cutter that is continually drawing in the bottom third of the league. 

continually? please. they were drawing over 2m until 2000, when, they had ownership issues, and on field talent issues. last year, they solved that problem, with a new owner, who, bought rogers centre, and invested 40m in it, and over the offseason, were the biggest spenders in mlb. and oh yeah, 13 years ago, were drawing 4m a season. a concrete cookie cutter? dude, have you been there? i have. it is still somewhat impressive, mlb's FIRST rolling roof, kick ass view of the cn tower above left center. yeah, sure. last year, back to 2m, and, still, in the bottom 3rd, however, their season ticket sales and advance sales will push this year over 2.7m. so, yeah, sure, they will be looking.

Yankees and Mets have had designs in place for the past few years now, both of these designs have undergone changes. And nothing is signed and solid on them yet.
 

now. we will show how accurate your silly little self is.


http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qst ... FlZUVFeXky

yeah, nothing is final for yankee stadium. sure. read that. done. ground gets broken this year. guess they are waiting for you to graduate and provide them with the sketches you made in a matchbook. discrepencies. sure, you are showing your ass. people on here are going to tar and feather me for sure for stating a 16 year old stadium was  15, oh wait, it is NOT REALLY EITHER AMOUNT OF YEARS OLD, 17, UNTIL THE MIDDLE OF THE SEASON, SINCE IT DID NOT OPEN UNTIL THE MIDDLE OF THE SEASON. I SHOULD KNOW, I WENT TO SKY DOME IN 1989, WHEN YOU WERE STILL IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.

either way, they are not looking for a new stadium, and if you think in 10 years, when that park is 27 years old ( add it up right quick, go behind me and double check my math there mr. soon to be designing stadiums all over the world ) then you are crazy. new ballparks are being designed to last longer then their predecessors. easily.

and bottom line, the county votes on this on april 4th, and there is nothing you can do to stop the fact that if it fails, the county and the royals have already made it clear they will pursue renovations AGAIN.

 
But if you want me to answer what mistakes, I'll start with your assertion that KC is more auto-dependant than Atlanta...
http://www.transact.org/report.asp?id=42

yeah, since an atlanta resident already came on here and disputed you on that one. or did you forget? that is some dumbass table that shows how much an average household spends on transportation. certainly could not be driven by the fact that more of them use the TRAIN there, it costs more to park there, and it is a city where a lot of downtown residents pay to park AT WORK AND AT HOME. not surface lots EVERYWHERE in atlanta. dude, you really know nothing about atlanta. i have been down there, and seen the marta packed, and seen beyond the georgia dome and turner field, very few surface lots, however, TONS of lots that are garages that cost an arm and a friecking leg. but, i guess BVC, who lives there, telling the truth on the matter, versus you, who, HAS NEVER LIVED THERE, makes you think  a table that says they spend the most on transportation, means something. bravo. you provided a table and forgot the obvius, atlanta is a town where a lot of residents take their car TO THE TRAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! then pay to ride the train after they park!

Atlanta is very car dependent but comparing KC to Atlanta on car dependency isn't all that relative until KC gets a rail line so that we can measure by percentage the usage of the two cities.  My opinion is KC is more car infatuated as of right now b/c of the resistence to rail.

there is the quote from someone who lives there. but, you keep on believing some table you do not know how to read.


THIS THREAD IS HIJACKED ENOUGH BY YOUR SILLY PATHETIC ATTEMPTS TO DISCUSS ATLANTA DRIVING, SKYDOME, AND THE NEW YANKEE STADIUM. BACK TO THE TRUMAN SPORTS COMPLEX, OR SHOULD WE SAY, THE SOON TO BE RENOVATED TRUMAN SPORTS COMPLEX