Washington Square - new stadium at night

[staubio]

Meet at that gas station at midnight tonight.

The password is: "viva la resistance!"

Will there be punch and pie?

[trailerkid]

I really have nothing else to say about this debate, but I think this picture speaks volumes..

[eliphar17]

I have a bag of Andes cherry jubilee candy... but no punch and pie. Also, I'm in Oklahoma right now. I'll have to leave around 6:30 tonight to get to KC by midnight; luckily I have no other plans. scooterj, we will really need that Bobcat from the Law Building, a bulldozer just isn't the same (the tanks under the gas station will be tricky). staubio, I know you have experience with stealing cranes, that's why I picked you for that. Michael­® and trailerkid (I don't understand your last comment), you are welcome to join us to take out your aggression...


And as for that glass cube... if you build a building and completely cover it with glass windows, you are just asking for someone to destroy it with baseballs.

[Deleted User]

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[KCPowercat]

the location of the garages would be more important in either location. If both locations could use existing office structures, alot could be done to diffuse what direction people got on various highways.

[kevink]

Michael makes some great points. Wrigley, for example, is nowhere near a freeway, and empties out in 15 minutes after the game. That's because 1) people use the city grid to diffuse the traffic in all directions. 2) there's active pedestrian life around it for some people, 3) some people take transit to the game.

I'm not sold on any particular site yet, but one thing WSP has going for it - the only site downtown that *ever* has the potential for suburbanites to take a train into a game. That has a big impact on parking, which has a big impact on street life, etc..

Traffic is always worse when it's concentrated into one or 2 routes. The grid works.

PS - I'm new to this - how do i get those cool images next to my name, and fix the "new resident" tag?

[Tosspot]

PS - I'm new to this - how do i get those cool images next to my name, and fix the "new resident" tag?

Kevin, you can upload an avatar by clicking the "Profile" link at the top of the page. As for that tag, it will change as your post count increases.

[GRID]

Yea, traffic to the north loop site would be awfull. It would totally clog the loop.

[scooterj]

one thing WSP has going for it - the only site downtown that *ever* has the potential for suburbanites to take a train into a game.

Not entirely true. For direct train access yes, but the last proposes commutter rail routes I saw had the route from EJC end at the River Market. Just sayin'...

[eliphar17]

Yea, traffic to the north loop site would be awfull. It would totally clog the loop.

I hope you are being sarcastic. God help us if the highways couldn't handle 10-20k cars from a baseball game over an hour or so... (That's not sarcasm.)

I think I'm finally starting to understand your argument, Michael® (though you still haven't stated it well), and I think it goes like this: Because there is a highway right next to the North Loop site, people will never be inclined to search for an alternate route - despite the fact that there are many - and traffic jams will perpetually be a problem, outweighing whatever benefits the site might have. At WSP, since there is no highway, people are forced to "diffuse" in various directions to get to a highway, thus reducing traffic, and making the overall experience far more enjoyable.

This is a valid argument if you don't think about it too hard. My response is that it is ridiculous to assume that EVERYONE would try to take I-70. I can certainly see this happening for the first month or so, since there is obviously some learning curve for the people who don't know downtown at all. BUT you can't ignore the fact that at least a substantial minority, and perhaps a majority, of the people at the game will be people who have some experience with the downtown streets and highways. Those people would know at least a few of the access points I mentioned, and would likely use alternate routes they are familiar with to avoid the traffic jam along I-70.

As time passes, since most people don't like sitting in traffic, they will begin to try alternate routes away from the stadium (and there are plenty, because of the street grid, which believe it or not is more complete in the downtown loop than at WSP). I believe the problem will eventually solve itself. And I certainly don't think it would be a problem to the degree that you suggest, after several weeks or maybe a month or two... or maybe it would take as much as a whole season, but it would definitely not be a problem forever.

[Deleted User]

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[KCMax]

You don't see the huge problem with the stadium being right up against I-70?

I don't understand. Doesn't Kauffman have the same problem? Doesn't seem to be that big of a deal.

[eliphar17]

Did you look at the graphic I made? You don't see the huge problem with the stadium being right up against I-70?
Sure people will try to find alternate routes, just like the thousands that try to get around Kaufmann now using Raytown Road and Manchester Trfwy. The real problem is that they will all eventually end up stuck against a landlocked highway. That's the real problem. And when the game is over, it will be painful exiting away from such a landlocked location.

Can you please define "landlocked"? I generally understand that to mean "not near water", which is obviously not what you're referring to. Also, the whole point of finding an alternate route is to get to a highway other than the one that's jammed; that will be much easier to do in the downtown street grid than at Kauffman. But you are still assuming that everyone ends up at I-70, and I still don't understand why (and no, the graphic doesn't explain anything).

[staubio]

Apparantly all 30,000 baseball fans live in Eastern Jack and will be clogging the eastbound ramp of I-70. Anyone in midtown KC, JoCo, WyCo or the northland will be taking other routes naturally. 1 block to the Broadway and over the bridge and a few to I-35 and out of there. Traffic will diffuse much more naturally in the loop. The loop already deals with traffic counts like that without a problem.

Like KCP said, this is about where people are parked, not where the stadium is. Not everyone is going to have their car right there at the stadium. Think about how well traffic is distributed after an event downtown. You could have the Lyric, Muni, Midland, Folley, and Music Hall all having events at the same time and probably not have a problem.

[macnw]

The main difference btwn the current stadium and the proposed stadium is the surrounding area. The main bitch about Kauffman is that there is nothing around there. The downtown stadium has the potential to keep people around after the game is over. The River Market is a short walk, Quality Hill establishments and even the entertainment district. For those who don't walk, you can bring back a downtown shuttle system, especially during the summer. The idea that people will come see a ballgame and leave is defeating. If we think that will occur, forget building a new stadium. That's what we have now. Use the proposed stadium as a means to get people downtown and keep some of the fans after the end of the game. Thereby reducing traffic flow/congestion.

[Deleted User]

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[scooterj]

The loop already deals with traffic counts like that without a problem.

There is a distinction, we're talking about a small, islolated segment of the loop and 30-40,000 fans getting out at one time.

The Convention Center is a small, isolated segment of the loop. Abutted against the freeway. With even fewer access points. Yet I have seen many times there have been simutaneous events at Bartle, Municipal, and the Midland and absolutely no serious traffic issues.

said, this is about where people are parked, not where the stadium is

There aren't many very large, distinct lots and garages in the north loop. Washington Square has tons of very large, distinct lots within 2 blocks .

As I mentioned in the other thread:

BTW I did quick visual survey on my way to work this morning and counted 8 multi-level parking garages within a 1 block radius of the boundaries of the 7th Street site. (There may be more that I didn't see.) Just FYI.

Furthurmore, new, spin-off stadium development won't skip the freeway(I-70). and build because it's unnatural and a too much of a a barrier. Just look at the Adam's Mark @ Kaufmann now to see how we failed there.

There's a little bit of a difference between a gap only one block wide and the Adams Mark a quarter mile away diagonaly.

..... no, the graphic doesn't explain anything.

The red lines show the only outlets for a north loop location.

No they don't. You only show a handful of possible routes and completely fail to consider the east-west options. A 3 year old can see that.




I see two choices here:

(1) I can walk to a ball game, afterwards walk over to a bar, then walk home.

(2) I can drive to the Crown Center parking garage, walk through the Link, see a game, walk back through the Link past all the closed shops, and drive home.

The North Loop wins hands down.

[Deleted User]

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[staubio]

The stadium is right up against I-70. The stadium is impossible to interact with from that (north) side. people accessing I-70 will be waiting for each other to get on the highway... like sitting in a parking lot . Furthurmore, new, spin-off stadium development won't skip the freeway(I-70). and build because it's unnatural and a too much of a a barrier. Just look at the Adam's Mark @ Kaufmann now to see how we failed there. There should be a TON more development @ The K but there isn't. You need land right nearby that's walkable and that can be developed correctly for this to work and the north loop is a bad example.

Hello!? First of all, the north loop location has THREE OTHER DIRECTIONS in which development can occur. The Washington Square location can ONLY go north, and it has an equivilant barrier with the tracks, and the north loops can just as easily go north and doesn't HAVE to.

You cannot say that the tracks are a non-issue. There are more ways to cross the north loop on foot than there are to cross the tracks, even if you put in a new bridge.

I realize that you have a strong emotional attachment to this location, but lets at least be realistic in the debate, eh?

[scooterj]

This is an impossibility, you need the entrances to the stadiums open. The entire left field front entrances of the stadium are isolated up against the freeway! No one would ever build that way. people are going to have to walk around a narrow strip along the freeway on the outside of the stadium to acces left filed seats? I don't think so!

If you build a stadium in this area, it WON"T be facing south toward the skyline, no way. It will have to be moved much furthur southward to be able to face the skyline.

You realize you're basing your rant on the presumption of this one quick rendering that put the stadium at the far north end of the possible site. Depending on which building or buildings are removed it could be positioned differently. Then you'd have your precious buffer and open space for development on the same side of the freeway and we could all go on with our lives.