Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
flyingember
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:54 am

Kauffman Stadium is 37k today. That's not much of a decrease.

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grovester
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by grovester » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:58 pm

I predict 10000 people will get there via scooter.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by flyingember » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:00 pm

grovester wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:58 pm
I predict 10000 people will get there via scooter.
I had to do it.

That's about half an acre of scooters.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by aknowledgeableperson » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:54 pm

flyingember wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:38 pm
To move 10,000 people in 60 minutes takes 20 trains departing every 60 seconds.

The existing stadiums and parking takes up 220 acres
The entire area between HyVee Arena and 670 (excluding the train tracks) is 110 acres.

If parking isn't added we need transit of course.

150 people per train.
Let's say we want to move 10,000 people in an hour
That's a packed train leaving every 60 seconds

We're not close to the scale of supporting a stadium with only 1/3 of capacity going by train.

This means figuring out parking for 20,000 cars.

And for 20,000 cars there's two ways out. Liberty St to 18th to I-35. This is for all northland bound cars
Wyoming to 670 for SB 35 and everyone going E-W
Cesar Chavez for some

That's much easier if it's put somewhere that we can come close to using the spaces the rest of the time or can be served by multiple transit modes. Paseo West makes much more sense.
Agreed except for the last sentence.
Not many people here remember Kemper Arena operating in its heyday. With a crowd of 16,000 it would take much more than one hour to get the cars out of the parking lots. Yes, one can add some mass transit to provide some relief put unless is is on dedicated ROW it would be stuck in traffic much like the cars would. West Bottoms makes no sense for a stadium unless there is a very big infrastructure investment for transportation. Would that make for a wise use of transportation investment dollars?

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by ToDactivist » Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:23 pm

Ah, er, half the people could walk to a downtown stadium. simple entertainment value for day games and after work. visit other cities with urban stadiums, I mean integrated, urban stadiums, not St Louis. They walk, sure cars and busses too. Denver doesnt even have light rail hit the stadium but people will walk 6 blocks to that station and disperse. All i hear is "cant do" and small thinking. get it done KC or languish as show me followers....oh, and dont forget. half the people will arrive early and eat/drink and then eat/drink after the games. different paradigm from a toadstool on concrete jungle.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by TheLastGentleman » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:18 am

Most of these "integrated urban stadiums" were built in what were suburbs at the time of construction. They were not imposed onto the urban fabric. Instead the urban fabric grew up around them. Big difference.

Image

Image

I still just don't understand what the appeal is to downtown stadiums. Sure, bars and stuff will get some extra cash for a few nights of the year, and there's the purely visceral image of seeing the skyline from the stadium, but is that worth forming a vast single-use superblock in the urban center of the city and building all the garages and junk that would come with it? Downtown has too many garages and is mutilated enough already.

Even if a stadium could somehow drive enough development to make the millions upon millions spent on the endeavor worthwhile, I still don't think it would be a good idea. I would prefer the revitalization of areas downtown be a gradual thing that takes full use of the urban site and respects it, even if it takes much longer. That's opposed to plopping a stadium into the middle of things, which, even in the very best scenario, effectively dooms the site to be a stadium for eternity. Just look at all the stadiums that have just been rebuilt on the same site over and over.

We should be focusing on creating a downtown strong enough that it doesn't need a stadium to attract people.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by Critical_Mass » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:15 am

^i see pros and cons but come on, 81 home games per season is more than just a 'few nights of the year'

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by shinatoo » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:14 am

ToDactivist wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:23 pm
Ah, er, half the people could walk to a downtown stadium. simple entertainment value for day games and after work. visit other cities with urban stadiums, I mean integrated, urban stadiums, not St Louis. They walk, sure cars and busses too. Denver doesnt even have light rail hit the stadium but people will walk 6 blocks to that station and disperse. All i hear is "cant do" and small thinking. get it done KC or languish as show me followers....oh, and dont forget. half the people will arrive early and eat/drink and then eat/drink after the games. different paradigm from a toadstool on concrete jungle.
20 thousand people live in downtown KC, maybe 10% of those would go to a baseball game on a given night. So there are 2000 people. the 18-30 thousand would have to make their way into the city. No thanks.
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Critical_Mass
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by Critical_Mass » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:44 pm

shinatoo wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:14 am
20 thousand people live in downtown KC, maybe 10% of those would go to a baseball game on a given night. So there are 2000 people. the 18-30 thousand would have to make their way into the city. No thanks.
You're overlooking downtown's daytime workforce population who would likely stick around downtown if catching a game after work, in addition to the resident and workforce population in the entire urban core that will be served by the streetcar's Main Street extension.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by TheLastGentleman » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:37 pm

Critical_Mass wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:15 am
^i see pros and cons but come on, 81 home games per season is more than just a 'few nights of the year'
That's less than a quarter of the year. I was obviously exaggerating, but the point still stands that the facility will not be in use for the vast majority of its existence, while also occupying an enormous amount of space that'd be better served by more conventional development

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by WoodDraw » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:08 pm

I'd only be for it if it was very, very well designed. My working theory is that the royals would want tons of parking they could charge for just like at Kauffman. I have little time for that.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by Critical_Mass » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:53 pm

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:37 pm
Critical_Mass wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:15 am
^i see pros and cons but come on, 81 home games per season is more than just a 'few nights of the year'
That's less than a quarter of the year. I was obviously exaggerating, but the point still stands that the facility will not be in use for the vast majority of its existence, while also occupying an enormous amount of space that'd be better served by more conventional development
For comparison, how many days of the year is Municipal Auditorium in use? Or Sprint Center, The Midland, Bartle Hall? Nearly a quarter of the year (average) seems decent to me. The usage is concentrated during April to October when the weather is nicest and people are out and about. The entire downtown is relatively devoid of street life November to March, so an inactive ball-park shouldn't be a huge concern during that time.
Regardless, it's street-level could be designed well to have active uses outside of ball-game hours. Additionally, the ballpark would most likely host other functions like charity events, concerts, etc.
The biggest concern for creating a dead-zone would be from the impact of additional parking garages.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by TheLastGentleman » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:55 pm

Critical_Mass wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:53 pm
For comparison, how many days of the year is Municipal Auditorium in use? Or Sprint Center, The Midland, Bartle Hall?
Excatly! Most of those buildings are severely underused for how massive they are. All the more reason to keep another example out of downtown.

Also, at least Municipal and the Sprint Center are multi-use, and the Midland isn't particularly large in comparison, features street level retail, and even has the Midland Building incorporated into it. Bartle Hall, like most convention centers in the US, is just totally unforgivable.

I agree though, that the worst impact will come from the required parking. A defender may say that we can run a streetcar from parking far away down to the stadium, but lets be realistic, they'll want the parking to be immediately adjacent to the stadium. That is the last thing we need right now.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by beautyfromashes » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:36 pm

Who’s to say we don’t have a retractable roof stadium that could be used for other purposes out of season? There are other large stadiums that have gotten Final Four or large concerts. We haven’t seen a baseball/ MLS combined stadium yet. I know those were terrible for MLB/NFL, but the seating numbers are more comparable for an MLS game.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by TheLastGentleman » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:43 pm

We already have loads of different venues downtown for concerts. What advantage would performing in a baseball stadium provide over any if those?

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by WoodDraw » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:51 pm

Soccer doesn't work in a baseball stadium either. Arrowhead makes far more sense for any game that needs that capacity.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by FangKC » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:51 pm

The most obvious place now for a stadium is Washington Square Park. There are parking garages all around it. If the IRS garage could be used; it's huge. I don't know what the parking stall count is around there, but there are several big garages at Union Station, Crown Center, and Hospital Hill. The streetcar lines runs to it, and could carry passengers to other garages along the line.

I used to say the best place for it would have been the Childrens Mercy parking lots at 19th, 20th Oak and Cherry. That possibility is gone now that Milhaus is building a project there, and using up a parcel that would have been needed for a stadium.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by kas1 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:24 am

MLB stadiums are much larger than arenas. City leaders have done a terrible job of communicating this to the public by nominating all sorts of locations where a stadium doesn't even fit. It's debatable whether putting a stadium downtown would be a good idea even if it were free.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by DaveKCMO » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:45 am

Critical_Mass wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:15 am
^i see pros and cons but come on, 81 home games per season is more than just a 'few nights of the year'
I’d rather spend a billion on the convention center, which would add more hotel room nights and spin off revenue than a ballpark subsidy.

But, hey, I hate the sportsballs.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Post by shinatoo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:48 am

DaveKCMO wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:45 am
Critical_Mass wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:15 am
^i see pros and cons but come on, 81 home games per season is more than just a 'few nights of the year'
I’d rather spend a billion on the convention center, which would add more hotel room nights and spin off revenue than a ballpark subsidy.

But, hey, I hate the sportsballs.
I agree. About the convention center, not sportball. I dont think a DT stadium would be good for DT or the team. It would hurt attendance and ecrease parking revenue.

Only stadium i would support DT would be something that could be used for conventions also.
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