Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby DaveKCMO » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:53 am

so we have to wait five years to have a CONVERSATION about building SOMETHING in the north loop? no thanks!

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby flyingember » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:38 am

The concept drawing is horribly fake for placing something downtown.

I count 13 mistakes from multiple missing buildings to streets that don't exist.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby loftguy » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:38 am

Bet you are killer at where's Waldo.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby bobbyhawks » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:51 am

I'm just glad there is a conversation happening at all, but it would be a reach for them to build a stadium facing that direction. There are only 6 ballparks in the majors that face a similar trajectory, and I think a number of them are known for being a problem when the sun is setting.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/lost-in-the-sun-the-physics-of-ballpark-orientation/

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby loftguy » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:43 am

Orient the stadium however makes sense.
Build it on that site and fill in the north loop at the same time as the new stadium erection.
A new boulevard from Charlotte to Broadway. Development to either side.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby bobbyhawks » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:56 pm

The only downside to orienting the stadium to the North is that you lose the skyline. The West Bottoms is still wide open and can face that way from the South. The Glass family can even buy up parking nearby and demand the GONDOLA GET BUILT!!! (I'm only half joking)

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby FangKC » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:55 pm

I'm not a big fan of the North Loop site for a baseball stadium. One reason is that if the stadium was built as rendered, it would take out a historic building near 6th and Central that has been renovated into residential. I would much rather see those vacant North Loop parcels developed for residential, commercial, and retail on intact city blocks. I think that would add more to Downtown Loop overall for the majority of the year than having a stadium on that site.

I would prefer to see a downtown baseball stadium be located in the East Crossroads around E. 16th and Holmes. Another site would be around 20th and Locust. There would be less chance of any significant buildings being demolished there.

I also worry than any location downtown would result in demand from local residents for abundant surface parking nearby, and/or making existing surface lots even more lucrative for their owners during baseball games --to the extent that they have little reason to develop them with buildings, or sell them for that purpose.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby loftguy » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:11 pm

FangKC wrote:I'm not a big fan of the North Loop site for a baseball stadium. One reason is that if the stadium was built as rendered, it would take out a historic building near 6th and Central that has been renovated into residential. I would much rather see those vacant North Loop parcels developed for residential, commercial, and retail on intact city blocks. I think that would add more to Downtown Loop overall for the majority of the year than having a stadium on that site.

I would prefer to see a downtown baseball stadium be located in the East Crossroads around E. 16th and Holmes. Another site would be around 20th and Locust. There would be less chance of any significant buildings being demolished there.

I also worry than any location downtown would result in demand from local residents for abundant surface parking nearby, and/or making existing surface lots even more lucrative for their owners during baseball games --to the extent that they have little reason to develop them with buildings, or sell them for that purpose.


I will concede, if you include taking out the north loop in your planning...

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby flyingember » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:19 pm

The only place I've thought a downtown stadium made sense is where Belvidere Park and the current public housing site that's already being torn down. It's big enough, it's not a central prime piece of land, it has good road and transit access from many directions both urban and suburban, it's at a place that has lots of room for redevelopment while being within easy reach of existing sites. It's not close to another major location like Sprint Center, Bartle Hall to create overlapping traffic. It's local govt owned land already. It doesn't take away from a frequently used park. It's a place that a new stadium isn't a major NIMBY problem, the homes in Columbus Park nearby already have sound walls

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby FangKC » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:51 pm

Flyingember, that Belvidere Park site also occurred to me. I ruled it out for a couple of reasons. It's not very walkable to downtown apartments, restaurants and bars. It's also too far from the downtown streetcar, especially if there is an extension to the Plaza, then the Crossroads' sites would make more sense for a stadium in the future.

However, it could be considered as a possibility long-term depending on how long it takes to decide about moving the stadium. The neighborhood around Paseo and Independence is an active redevelopment zone undergoing planning now. The City hopes to redevelop it into a walkable mixed-use neighborhood over time. Demolition of buildings has already started (Capri Motel). Phase One of the Paseo Gateway redevelopment extends south down to E. 9th. Having the stadium there might pump up the development interest faster--especially if the City extends the streetcar along Independence Avenue to at least Woodland Avenue. Or along E. 11th Street to around Forest, then go north to Admiral, and turn east to Woodland. Running a streetcar line is somewhat limited to, and through that, neighborhood because of steep grades--especially from Main. And some of the north-south streets don't extend all the way to Independence Avenue in a straight line uninterrupted.

The other issue there would again be parking. There aren't any large, existing parking garages now, and without them, I fear the Royals would want a lot of surface parking lots adjacent--which would defeat the purpose of the redevelopment.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby DaveKCMO » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:34 pm

harbinger911 wrote:Man there are some really stupid ideas being thrown around.

Belvidere Park? Crazy.
There's not enough room and that would be the worst possible location in the known universe.
There's little highway access and the neighborhood is still sketchy.
There is absolutely no synergistic capabilities with downtown from that location.

North loop? Again, not really enough room. That would be the tightest fit of any baseball stadium in the MLB.
It's ridiculous.

The idea is to place it where it will spur real development.
19th & Oak, that is far and away the best location.
It ties downtown to the Jazz District and will be perfect for adding residential down 18th street.
Image

https://twitter.com/jrmiller962/status/674665609356013568


where do you plan to put all of the parking that the teams will inevitably require? don't plan on leveling a bunch of crossroads buildings for it, either.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby grovester » Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:51 pm

Needs to go farther east. That connects the jazz district about as much as Grinders does.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby FangKC » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:16 pm

That is why talk of a downtown baseball stadium makes me so nervous. The parking issue. Our community tends to have a penchant for abundant surface parking in all things.

The 19th and Oak site makes the most sense. Nothing significant would have to be demolished for the stadium. If the financing also included a new garage at 20th and McGee in between the two bridges, I could tolerate a single-use parking garage there. Especially if it was also used for parking to service a new development on Grand between 19th and 20th. The other condition would be opening up nearby garages to the public for games: the garages around Hospital Hill; the garages at Crown Center; and any future garage under the deck in a revamped Washington Square Park. One could also use the IRS garages on Pershing if shuttles were run. The overflow parking could be placed on surface lots east of Troost.

It doesn't make sense to build several garages just for baseball fans' use. They would have to be tied other joint uses and other new developments in the area, and be full during business hours serving economic activity.

Other downtown garages could be used, but even then I worry that the streetcar couldn't handle the increased capacity efficiently enough to carry that many passengers near the stadium within an hour of the game starting.

It would help if we could run commuter trains behind the stadium with a dedicated stop there. That might reduce parking needs somewhat. But that's another big problem itself.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby pash » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:08 pm

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Last edited by pash on Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:44 am

Let's see. The conversation starts in five years. How will all of these various areas look like in five years? And a decision wouldn't be made right away so who knows what development would occur between the start of the conversation and a possible decision on a location.
And let's see, how long of a commitment do the Royals have to the TSC?

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby flyingember » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:24 am

harbinger911 wrote:Man there are some really stupid ideas being thrown around.

Belvidere Park? Crazy.
There's not enough room and that would be the worst possible location in the known universe.

I'm impressed. You managed to put around a 12 acre ballpark down in your example. The park site is 15.3 acres

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby flyingember » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:27 am

harbinger911 wrote:Just look at all of the blue surface lots and unused/underused parcels.

Image


Yes, taking land from a Children's hospital is a project that people can get behind.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby chingon » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:32 pm

harbinger911 wrote:It's not like we can tear out everything exactly halfway between the Crossroads and Vine and plop it there - it has to go somewhere.
That is an empty space that is "between" and close to 18th, so it's a great start to connect the 2 Districts in the best way possible right now.
Where else "east?" Too far east and you lose the immediate synergy of the Crossroads which is a much better bet to spur development.
Any development along 18th is happening west and moving east. That's common sense.[/b]


I like your thought process, re: connected the East crossroads to the east side, but I think, and have mentioned probably ad nauseum before, that goal is better accomplished and more easily realized by building a downtown stadium on E 18th/19th east of 71 HWY. The city could, in fact, tear down everything there and plop a stadium down. The ATA owns/uses quite a bit of the real estate there, and there is ample room to move that facility. Man Tech could also be relocated to any of the appropriately-sized vacant KCMOPSD buildings. Other than that there's not much but a couple scrap yards and other light industry that should make the site pretty easy to acquire. And there's plenty of room for surface parking to exist in a "less destructive" way. Add to that the excellent highway access in the area, the traffic volume that Truman and Paseo can easily handle, plus the area's baseball history and extant but underperforming retail infrastructure, it makes a lot of sense.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby flyingember » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:56 pm

If moving the bus facility is realistic that's not a horrible location.

It's already a superblock and where it isn't (Forest) the roads don't connect past I-70 or US 71 so you're not upsetting the grid. E-W taking out 16th and 17th was already done.

Urban, spot is near freeway noise so you don't have NIMBY noise problems. Same urban ease of access with decent freeway access and existing transit and doesn't overlap downtown street traffic. Good place for parking garages where no one will care right along US 71. Can build on 18th/Vine development.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby grovester » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:28 pm

chingon wrote:
harbinger911 wrote:It's not like we can tear out everything exactly halfway between the Crossroads and Vine and plop it there - it has to go somewhere.
That is an empty space that is "between" and close to 18th, so it's a great start to connect the 2 Districts in the best way possible right now.
Where else "east?" Too far east and you lose the immediate synergy of the Crossroads which is a much better bet to spur development.
Any development along 18th is happening west and moving east. That's common sense.[/b]


I like your thought process, re: connected the East crossroads to the east side, but I think, and have mentioned probably ad nauseum before, that goal is better accomplished and more easily realized by building a downtown stadium on E 18th/19th east of 71 HWY. The city could, in fact, tear down everything there and plop a stadium down. The ATA owns/uses quite a bit of the real estate there, and there is ample room to move that facility. Man Tech could also be relocated to any of the appropriately-sized vacant KCMOPSD buildings. Other than that there's not much but a couple scrap yards and other light industry that should make the site pretty easy to acquire. And there's plenty of room for surface parking to exist in a "less destructive" way. Add to that the excellent highway access in the area, the traffic volume that Truman and Paseo can easily handle, plus the area's baseball history and extant but underperforming retail infrastructure, it makes a lot of sense.


^^^This. The area you have marked is already well on its way to vibrancy and a stadium there would probably fuck it up.


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