Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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TheLastGentleman
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby TheLastGentleman » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:56 pm

Here's my two cents. I think Kauffman should be maintained for as long as possible. Not only is it in excellent shape, but it, along with arrowhead, are pieces of sports history and beautiful examples of space-age Googie architecture. I think moving out of it, or, God forbid, tearing it down, would be seen in retrospect as a huge mistake.
Also, just today the Star posted this:
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/mlb/ka ... 38861.html
If they do have to move into a new stadium, just keep it out of the loop. Downtown is just recovering from the disaster of postwar urban planning, and a stadium plopped in the middle of it is the last thing the area needs.
So, basically, yeah, all the proposed locations are abysmal. The Flashcube building and the interstate building are being renovated, so how would that even work? And site two overlaps with the college basketball area of the sprint center.....what?

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby Highlander » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:45 pm

I'm good with a downtown baseball stadium but not sure if the selected sites make all that much sense. Not sure it's feasible but I like the area presently occupied by the hospital hill parking lots north of Pershing. I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon - the recent renovation was just too ... recent. Give it another 10 years before there is serious discussion.

It's fun to read the comments in the article. Most complain about traffic and parking associated with a downtown stadium. Frankly, from a traffic perspective, it's hard to be worse than the stadium complex with its limited exit points. Downtown would be a huge improvement. Even in deplorable Houston traffic, downtown baseball traffic isn't that difficult. Parking problems are in the eye of the beholder - literally. Visitors would not have line of sight parking to stadium if it were downtown, but all would be OK.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby FangKC » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:45 am

I don't get the need for the stadium to be within the downtown loop. I would think you would reserve parcels within the loop for 5-to-7 days-a-week uses year-round instead of a few days each month for just a few months out of the year. A stadium seems to be a downtown-adjacent thing.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby bobbyhawks » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:29 am

FangKC wrote:I don't get the need for the stadium to be within the downtown loop. I would think you would reserve parcels within the loop for 5-to-7 days-a-week uses year-round instead of a few days each month for just a few months out of the year. A stadium seems to be a downtown-adjacent thing.

Good point, but a baseball stadium is actually used at least 81 out of ~180 days during the peak good weather months. It isn't totally fair to say that it is just used a few days each month for a few months a year. It is used for at least half the year and for almost half the days during that time. If we were talking about a football stadium, I'd totally agree. Also, we've been reserving space for year-round buildings for a long long time, and there are still giant swaths of surface parking. There is a middle ground between taking up valuable future business/residential real estate and putting a stadium far enough away from downtown that people inside the loop don't feel like they can walk there after work or from their condo.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby shinatoo » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:36 am

The more downtown stadiums I've visited the more I have cooled on this idea. And Highlander, what are you talking about with traffic? It is not even remotely difficult to get out of the TSC after a Royals game. Chiefs, yes, I don't know what the Chiefs did to F that up after 45 years but somehow they seem to be making it worse, but I would never say Royals games have been a problem.

But most importantly, no downtown baseball stadium without serious rail connections.

I could get behind a multi-use stadium (baseball + convention space). Build it over the I-35/I-670 interchange and connect it to Bartle Hall. Otherwise, for single use, it's a classic, keep it where it's at. No need to spend 750 million when we have what is still considered a top 5 stadium.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby flyingember » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:38 am

If the stadium is really some development inducing location it should be put in a blighted area to drive new development.

So "downtown adjacent" seems to be the smartest idea.

I would think the best spot would be right along one of the studied streetcar corridors and also lines up with the bus backbone.
It also needs to be somewhere that breaking the grid can't have a huge impact

Troost to Tracy, 12th to 14th seems like a good candidate.

The Paseo gives good access to the north and south with direct line ups to I-35 and I-70 and 670
Troost is near ramps to/from the south for 71
There's lots of good access from the loop
It's on a future streetcar corridor and current bus cooridor
And it's an area that if they really want a large parking garage, it can also serve future efforts to revitalize Paseo Industrial

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby DaveKCMO » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:30 pm

not mentioned in the star article, but i'm told it might take the form of a P3 to reduce or eliminate the need for a massive public subsidy (a major reason why i would oppose any new stadium for any sportsball team).

also, it cannot be in the crossroads. oil and water, people.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby DaveKCMO » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:11 pm


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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby horizons82 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:23 pm

To me, the most transformational and appropriate spot, if you want another stadium downtown, is the current KCATA facility area at roughly 18 & Troost. Take the area from Troost to Lydia, Truman to 18th, and you've got a great contender. It'd accomplish a lot of needs:

- Easily aquired from other public entities
- Less destruction to the street grid than the four sites studied
- Activates a huge swath of urban area, adding another catalyst to an area that needs a jumpstart
- Strengthens the connection from east Crossroads to 18th & Vine area
- Easy highway access and near major transit corridors

It's a shame they're not considering it.


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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby Highlander » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:37 pm

shinatoo wrote:The more downtown stadiums I've visited the more I have cooled on this idea. And Highlander, what are you talking about with traffic? It is not even remotely difficult to get out of the TSC after a Royals game. Chiefs, yes, I don't know what the Chiefs did to F that up after 45 years but somehow they seem to be making it worse, but I would never say Royals games have been a problem.

But most importantly, no downtown baseball stadium without serious rail connections.

I could get behind a multi-use stadium (baseball + convention space). Build it over the I-35/I-670 interchange and connect it to Bartle Hall. Otherwise, for single use, it's a classic, keep it where it's at. No need to spend 750 million when we have what is still considered a top 5 stadium.


Last time I went to a Royals game was a couple of years ago when they won the world series, it was a close game so nobody left early, and it was a half hour to get out of the parking complex.

I am not advocating for a downtown stadium right now, but it's something to consider when Royals stadium has finally outlived its usefulness. I am just pointing out that putting stadiums downtown do not necessarily cause traffic or parking issues. On the traffic side, my experience is that traffic dissipates much faster when there are a multitude of routes available for exit and downtown certainly offers that luxury. There are 4-5 functional exits from Royals Stadium.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby Highlander » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:47 pm

flyingember wrote:If the stadium is really some development inducing location it should be put in a blighted area to drive new development.

So "downtown adjacent" seems to be the smartest idea.

I would think the best spot would be right along one of the studied streetcar corridors and also lines up with the bus backbone.
It also needs to be somewhere that breaking the grid can't have a huge impact

Troost to Tracy, 12th to 14th seems like a good candidate.

The Paseo gives good access to the north and south with direct line ups to I-35 and I-70 and 670
Troost is near ramps to/from the south for 71
There's lots of good access from the loop
It's on a future streetcar corridor and current bus cooridor
And it's an area that if they really want a large parking garage, it can also serve future efforts to revitalize Paseo Industrial


Arrowhead and Royals Stadium have been at I70/I435 for decades and have totally failed to spur any development in that area outside of the Adams Mark Hotel and a couple of other small hotels. I've always thought spurring development requires a critical mass that the stadiums on there own cannot provide. KC's downtown area is on a roll but having the Royals would definitely provide some more fuel. KC has made huge mistakes with the location of its infrastructure in the past (a mistake we are still repeating with Cerner) - I'd rather see KC concentrate the primary infrastructure and let more organic grass roots growth take place on the peripheries.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby DaveKCMO » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:10 am

anecdotally, i hear a lot of people talking about the traffic implications of a downtown stadium. completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of transit routes terminate downtown from every corner of the region...

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby flyingember » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:36 am

DaveKCMO wrote:anecdotally, i hear a lot of people talking about the traffic implications of a downtown stadium. completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of transit routes terminate downtown from every corner of the region...


It would be interesting to see what percentage of tickets are purchased by someone with a bus line within 10 blocks of their home

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby TheLastGentleman » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:12 pm

Highlander wrote:Arrowhead and Royals Stadium have been at I70/I435 for decades and have totally failed to spur any development in that area outside of the Adams Mark Hotel and a couple of other small hotels. I've always thought spurring development requires a critical mass that the stadiums on there own cannot provide. KC's downtown area is on a roll but having the Royals would definitely provide some more fuel. KC has made huge mistakes with the location of its infrastructure in the past (a mistake we are still repeating with Cerner) - I'd rather see KC concentrate the primary infrastructure and let more organic grass roots growth take place on the peripheries.

Why should we expect a relocated stadium to spur development when the original stadiums didn't? Anecdotally, I've never seen an example of an area taking off once a stadium is built. They seem to act as islands surrounded by parking lots that only get active when there's a game. To me, that just doesn't seem like the kind of building you'd want downtown.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby beautyfromashes » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:18 pm

TheLastGentleman wrote:Why should we expect a relocated stadium to spur development when the original stadiums didn't? Anecdotally, I've never seen an example of an area taking off once a stadium is built. They seem to act as islands surrounded by parking lots that only get active when there's a game. To me, that just doesn't seem like the kind of building you'd want downtown.

I’ve been to most every baseball stadium and this is not correct. If they are placed in an area that has most any kind of other buildings nearby they almost always spur additional development. Of course, if placed in the middle of nowhere with nothing else around, they are not sufficient enough by themselves to generate significant development. A location with transportation, other buildings and some minimal form of activity already will see significant transformation.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby TheLastGentleman » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:33 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:I’ve been to most every baseball stadium and this is not correct. If they are placed in an area that has most any kind of other buildings nearby they almost always spur additional development. Of course, if placed in the middle of nowhere with nothing else around, they are not sufficient enough by themselves to generate significant development. A location with transportation, other buildings and some minimal form of activity already will see significant transformation.

Can you give some examples?

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby Highlander » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:32 pm

TheLastGentleman wrote:
Highlander wrote:Arrowhead and Royals Stadium have been at I70/I435 for decades and have totally failed to spur any development in that area outside of the Adams Mark Hotel and a couple of other small hotels. I've always thought spurring development requires a critical mass that the stadiums on there own cannot provide. KC's downtown area is on a roll but having the Royals would definitely provide some more fuel. KC has made huge mistakes with the location of its infrastructure in the past (a mistake we are still repeating with Cerner) - I'd rather see KC concentrate the primary infrastructure and let more organic grass roots growth take place on the peripheries.

Why should we expect a relocated stadium to spur development when the original stadiums didn't? Anecdotally, I've never seen an example of an area taking off once a stadium is built. They seem to act as islands surrounded by parking lots that only get active when there's a game. To me, that just doesn't seem like the kind of building you'd want downtown.


My point was that stadiums augment development, they don't single-handedly create it. There was nothing at I-70/435 in 1970 before the stadiums and there is essentially nothing there now. They do not create enough traffic on a regular basis on their own to sustain business. Put them in an area like downtown where there is already a critical mass and they will indeed augment local business. Sprint Center already does the same for the Power and Light district. If the district had to depend only on Sprint Center activity, every business there would have already closed down but there is enough going on in downtown on a regular basis that the various restaurant, bars et al are not totally dependent on the Sprint Center. Sprint Center certainly helps but it's not the sole reason for their existence. There obviously are some downsides like being a dead zone when the Royals are not playing at home but even that can be somewhat alleviated by location and design.

I would disagree that downtown stadiums are necessarily islands surrounded by parking although there are some like Houston's Minute Maid Park and Busch Stadium that do have a huge amount of associated surface parking. While no stadium arrived and by itself transformed an area (for the very reasons I state above), many have really augmented the area they occupy without being "islands" surrounded by parking. One of the best examples is Coors Field in Denver. Going to a Rockies game is a really great experience. Cincinatti's Great American Stadium and Camden Yards in Baltimore are also well integrated into their downtown setting.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby beautyfromashes » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:47 pm

TheLastGentleman wrote:Can you give some examples?


Giants Stadium has helped transform the entire east pier of San Francisco with new shops, business development and high end restaurants and hotels.

Orioles Camden Yard, while built several years ago, was a huge focus to helping rejuvenate the inner harbor of Baltimore.

Coors Field can arguable be credited with sparking the development of all of Denver’s DT. New lofts, corporate buildings, entertainment districts, etc.

PNC Park helped move development across the river and increased neighborhood values.

Target Field, Comerica Park, Jacobs Field, etc.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby grovester » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:49 pm

I think downtown and crossroads don't need a stadium. Around 71 highway is as close as I would bring it.


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