Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

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beautyfromashes
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby beautyfromashes » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:53 pm

As far as what could happen with a baseball stadium in DT Kansas City: it would immediately push us past the renovation stage to the new build stage for residential buildings with parking lots filled with new towers, it would make DT the #1 location in this city for corporate locations (companies similar to Cerner and Sprint would locate there instead of the suburbs like they would have in the past), rail transportation would be a major focus, convention business would increase, etc, etc.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby beautyfromashes » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:57 pm

grovester wrote:I think downtown and crossroads don't need a stadium. Around 71 highway is as close as I would bring it.


That would be a huge waste. Companies want to walk out of their corporate HQ and walk to the stadium with clients. They want entertainment and restaurants and nightlife. 71 might as well be Truman if you have to get in a car to get there. I’d vote stay where they are or build in JC if that is the location chosen.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby grovester » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:14 pm

It would include a streetcar from downtown.

Considering our weather, they'd probably drive the few blocks most of the time anyway.

This seems like something we could use to shave 20 years off of development timelines that would fill the gaps. I'm thinking of 18th Street in particular.

Downtown is already a done deal in the time frame we are looking at.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby beautyfromashes » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:26 pm

Everyone would drive and park then leave after the game. It wouldn’t be an economic driver at all. You have to make it so the conversation is, “Hey, let’s go an hour early to park and grab dinner.”, or, “Let’s go grab a drink after the game while traffic clears out.” 71 gets us nothing.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby Highlander » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:54 pm

grovester wrote:It would include a streetcar from downtown.

Considering our weather, they'd probably drive the few blocks most of the time anyway.

This seems like something we could use to shave 20 years off of development timelines that would fill the gaps. I'm thinking of 18th Street in particular.

Downtown is already a done deal in the time frame we are looking at.


I think there is a location that is absolutely doable and a bit closer to the Crossroads than that. Look at the general area between McGee and Holmes and south of 19th street (further east) or 20th street (further west). That area is completely underutilized except by Hospital Hill's giant surface lot and borders the south side of the Crossroads. That would be a closer and more integrated boundary with the Crossroads without halting organic growth and requiring tear downs. The existing surface lot could be replaced by a parking garage on Hospital Hill itself which is a much better solution for workers on the hill and everyone wins. It's a near perfect location.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby im2kull » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:55 am

Highlander wrote:I would disagree that downtown stadiums are necessarily islands surrounded by parking although One of the best examples is Coors Field in Denver. Going to a Rockies game is a really great experience.


Yes, Rockies games are a great experience. However, what exactly is the stadium doing to help downtown Denver today.. Or any other day in which there isn't a game? How about throughout winter? I'll give you a hint. It's a giant unused monolith with a density of zero that covers a massive swath of the downtown core in which it prevents ANY effective use of the area on a down day. It's a giant development and pedestrian roadblock. I don't know about you, but myself and everyone else in Denver is tired of having to park across the freeway and walk a mile down 20th just to get to work. Game nights are even worse because then parking is a minimum of 30 bucks for the same experience. The Mall is what has helped DT Denver the most.. Not Coors Field.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby im2kull » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:59 am

beautyfromashes wrote:As far as what could happen with a baseball stadium in DT Kansas City: it would immediately push us past the renovation stage to the new build stage for residential buildings with parking lots filled with new towers, it would make DT the #1 location in this city for corporate locations (companies similar to Cerner and Sprint would locate there instead of the suburbs like they would have in the past), rail transportation would be a major focus, convention business would increase, etc, etc.


Or it would create an immediate stoppage of the DT building boom and bring any possible new construction to a halt by evaporating the only cheap grounds being eyed for potential high density, high rise buildings. Welcome to the reality of urban renewal.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby beautyfromashes » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:01 am

im2kull wrote:
Or it would create an immediate stoppage of the DT building boom and bring any possible new construction to a halt by evaporating the only cheap grounds being eyed for potential high density, high rise buildings. Welcome to the reality of urban renewal.

There is no shortage of land in our DT for development. Acres upon acres east of City Hall can be developed. Same with north loop. Lots of empty lots and low rise buildings in the Crossroads,especially east. When a city can name four sites big enough to build a baseball stadium in your DT, you have plenty of land.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby flyingember » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:42 am

beautyfromashes wrote:There is no shortage of land in our DT for development. Acres upon acres east of City Hall can be developed. Same with north loop. Lots of empty lots and low rise buildings in the Crossroads,especially east. When a city can name four sites big enough to build a baseball stadium in your DT, you have plenty of land.

Remember the key aspect of all this land.

This is not a socialist country, the city cannot just claim any piece of land for any purpose. The owner must be willing to sell or the city must be willing to drag the purchase into the courts if the owner fights it.

So when you see acres of parking, you should also see acres of personal rights that we shouldn't be quick to ignore.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby shinatoo » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:14 am

im2kull wrote:
Highlander wrote:I would disagree that downtown stadiums are necessarily islands surrounded by parking although One of the best examples is Coors Field in Denver. Going to a Rockies game is a really great experience.


Yes, Rockies games are a great experience. However, what exactly is the stadium doing to help downtown Denver today.. Or any other day in which there isn't a game? How about throughout winter? I'll give you a hint. It's a giant unused monolith with a density of zero that covers a massive swath of the downtown core in which it prevents ANY effective use of the area on a down day. It's a giant development and pedestrian roadblock. I don't know about you, but myself and everyone else in Denver is tired of having to park across the freeway and walk a mile down 20th just to get to work. Game nights are even worse because then parking is a minimum of 30 bucks for the same experience. The Mall is what has helped DT Denver the most.. Not Coors Field.


I agree. Not everyone is a baseball fan. I think the resurgence in Denver development is more about Denver being a great city on the rise than a baseball stadium being built. And no one is talking about St. Louis. That stadium has always been downtown. Other then the new Cordish development and a few bars to the south I don't think it's ever had much impact. Atlanta finally figured it out too.
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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby beautyfromashes » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:47 am

flyingember wrote:Remember the key aspect of all this land.

This is not a socialist country, the city cannot just claim any piece of land for any purpose. The owner must be willing to sell or the city must be willing to drag the purchase into the courts if the owner fights it.

So when you see acres of parking, you should also see acres of personal rights that we shouldn't be quick to ignore.

Which is why they picked four different potential locations; to negotiate on the purchase. Having more options provides for the, “Fine! We have other locations we can explore.”, part of the negotiation. But, that wasn’t really the point. I was more countering the crazy idea that we shouldn’t build a stadium because we need that land for development. We have plenty of land. We could rebuild every building currently downtown and not run out.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:14 am

DaveKCMO wrote:anecdotally, i hear a lot of people talking about the traffic implications of a downtown stadium. completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of transit routes terminate downtown from every corner of the region...


If there is ever going to be a downtown stadium, especially within the loop, there better be a way much better and bigger mass transit system in place than what is in existence now. I know it has been a few years now but have you ever been commuting downtown in rush hour traffic when there is a big morning event in the Bartle Complex? The ones I experienced when there were motivational speakers programs in Municipal Arena brought traffic almost to a standstill.
Planning for a downtown arena should not be in isolation. It should also include planning to upgrade the mass transit system from all points of the compass.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby kas1 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:34 pm

If there's going to be a downtown stadium then I can't envision it going anywhere other than the southeast corner of 19th & Oak. It's the only site available which is central enough to be accessible on foot, yet tucked away enough to not create a black hole, doesn't interrupt any existing through streets, and doesn't require demolition of any buildings that are remotely worth saving. As an added bonus, the project could include improvements to the pedestrian experience crossing between the Crossroads and Crown Center/Hospital Hill.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby flyingember » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:29 pm

kas1 wrote:doesn't interrupt any existing through streets

they'll want to be on a through street with direct access to freeway on ramps

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby beautyfromashes » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:35 pm

19th and Oak would be a terrible scale to merge with a huge ballpark. There are all one- and two story buildings that wouldn’t even be seen from the park. They’d tear down Grinders to build a condo high rise. A new ballpark needs to show off our downtown buildings while also allowing space for new build.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby flyingember » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:15 pm

beautyfromashes wrote:19th and Oak would be a terrible scale to merge with a huge ballpark. There are all one- and two story buildings that wouldn’t even be seen from the park. They’d tear down Grinders to build a condo high rise. A new ballpark needs to show off our downtown buildings while also allowing space for new build.

Why do the buildings next to the stadium need to be seen?

If that's a critical aspect then the only sites downtown that make sense require tearing buildings down.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby beautyfromashes » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:17 pm

Most all of the new stadiums being built use the background as a way to market and sell the city in a national stage. St. Louis shows the arch, Baltimore has the warehouse, San Fran has the harbor, etc. The new stadium should do the same here. I’d prefer to show off Bartle and P&L building but there aren’t any locations. But, it definitely needs to be closer in to DT.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby Highlander » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:26 pm

im2kull wrote:
Highlander wrote:I would disagree that downtown stadiums are necessarily islands surrounded by parking although One of the best examples is Coors Field in Denver. Going to a Rockies game is a really great experience.


Yes, Rockies games are a great experience. However, what exactly is the stadium doing to help downtown Denver today.. Or any other day in which there isn't a game? How about throughout winter? I'll give you a hint. It's a giant unused monolith with a density of zero that covers a massive swath of the downtown core in which it prevents ANY effective use of the area on a down day. It's a giant development and pedestrian roadblock. I don't know about you, but myself and everyone else in Denver is tired of having to park across the freeway and walk a mile down 20th just to get to work. Game nights are even worse because then parking is a minimum of 30 bucks for the same experience. The Mall is what has helped DT Denver the most.. Not Coors Field.


Downtown Denver was doing well before the Rockies arrived (notwithstanding the oil bust of the 80's) and I never Coors Field had anything to do with downtown Denver's emergence - I've lived there, I know the history. But it certainly has not hurt continuing that well being. There was total support for a downtown stadium in Denver when it was built and I don't think many Denver residents regret the location of the stadium at all. I am pretty well acquainted with the city having lived there, visit often and have family there. First of all, the stadium hardly occupies a massive swath of the downtown core. You very much exaggerate the footprint - It occupies a relatively small area, maybe 3 sq blocks, on the northern periphery of downtown. It's really not in the core of downtown at all.

Yea, stadiums create dead zones part of the time - not that much though as baseball stretches from at least April to late September and even well into October if you are lucky. But really, so what? The Sprint Center creates a dead zone when it's not in use. Do you really want to put it somewhere else? out in the burbs? So the land it occupies can revert back to a surface lot? Should they move Wrigley, Fenway, Yankee Stadium because they take up valuable real estate? I'd gladly replace the surface lots in downtown KC with a stadium that has no activity for a few months per year. And I really like going out to eat and to downtown bars when there is an event at the sprint center. Same for when I attend games at Coors Field. I suspect the vast majority of Denver resident do too - I know my friends and family in Denver certainly do. It's an urban experience.
Last edited by Highlander on Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby Highlander » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:44 pm

aknowledgeableperson wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:anecdotally, i hear a lot of people talking about the traffic implications of a downtown stadium. completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of transit routes terminate downtown from every corner of the region...


If there is ever going to be a downtown stadium, especially within the loop, there better be a way much better and bigger mass transit system in place than what is in existence now. I know it has been a few years now but have you ever been commuting downtown in rush hour traffic when there is a big morning event in the Bartle Complex? The ones I experienced when there were motivational speakers programs in Municipal Arena brought traffic almost to a standstill.
Planning for a downtown arena should not be in isolation. It should also include planning to upgrade the mass transit system from all points of the compass.


Inside the loop is not the ideal place for a downtown stadium. The KC effort to identify locations was not very well thought through. While I'm not among the "stadiums are dead zones" crowd, they shouldn't be smack in the middle of downtown either - shoot for a peripheral location like the one I mentioned south of 20th on McGee.

If a motivational speaker at Municipal Auditorium is the worst it gets, then it can't be that bad. And KC traffic isn't bad. Rush hour is really about the same if not a little less the background traffic for Denver, Dallas and Houston. One thing I love about KC is that I never have to plan my day around traffic. Such a relief. I left for my office in Houston at 4:50 AM and the highways were already getting stacked up.

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Re: Would you like to see the Royals move to a downtown stadium?

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:56 pm

"If a motivational speaker at Municipal Auditorium is the worst it gets, then it can't be that bad."

It was that traffic for the event along with the morning rush hour traffic. Traffic was more or less at a standstill. Not sure how the traffic was in the NE part of downtown but the west and south was a parking lot. Traffic backed up on the ramps off the highways. So I would say that was bad.


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