Downtown ballpark and condos

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
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Maitre D
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Downtown ballpark and condos

Postby Maitre D » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:17 am

KCMax wrote:We've talked about eliminating the new stadium forum for awhile, but its still being kept alive for renovations talk and soccer stadium talk.


If the ballpark had been built DT, we'd already see the W Hotel and the Crossroads Hotel already under construction.  The conventoin hotel probably would get done as well.


Have you seen the pics surrounding Petco Park in SD lately?  WOW.  Condo towers going up like mad around it.  What a blow for KC.


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Last edited by KCMax on Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby schugg » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:53 am

What a blow for KC.

we're stupid.

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Postby kcmetro » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:06 pm

Maitre D wrote:If the ballpark had been built DT, we'd already see the W Hotel and the Crossroads Hotel already under construction.  The conventoin hotel probably would get done as well.


That's why I don't see how one can be a fan of the TSC renovations and a fan of downtown redevelopment at the same time. One negates the other. There's no denying that if there was a downtown ballpark, even if publicly subsidized, that the condo towers would already be going up.

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Postby aknowledgeableperson » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:36 pm

It is simple.  If downtown needed a baseball stadium in order for it to survive then that does not speak well of the future success of downtown.  One can argue that downtown, overall, will be a better place without a stadium.  A stadium that ties up 4 to 6 blocks that is dark over 75% of the time.

Condo towers already going up?  Give me a break.  The KC market is not ready for a new tower construction in the dt area and a stadium would not change that.
I may be right.  I may be wrong.  But there is a lot of gray area in-between.

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Postby Maitre D » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:45 pm

kcmetro wrote:That's why I don't see how one can be a fan of the TSC renovations and a fan of downtown redevelopment at the same time. One negates the other.


I've made that point so many times on the board.  A blazing contradiction so blinding, I can't believe people continue to deny it.

You're exactly right, and one day, I have faith this city will fully discover that obv. fact.    We've made a ton of progress the past 5 years fortunately.  But we have work to do.
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Postby kcmetro » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:48 pm

aknowledgeableperson wrote:Condo towers already going up?  Give me a break.  The KC market is not ready for a new tower construction in the dt area and a stadium would not change that.


What makes you think that? I'd sure as heck be more interested in a condo if it was next to a MLB stadium where games were being played 81 nights a year. And I know there are probably others like me out there who feel the same way. I'd guess a lot of people feel there's no reason to be downtown if First Fridays is the only thing to do.

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Postby Maitre D » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:49 pm

schugg wrote:we're stupid.


There was a huge political component about why that went down the way it did, and we've re-hashed both sides on the other forum many times.

I don't blame the people nec....what I learned in that whole debacle is: sports development in no way/shape/form follows the direction of the "market".  It follows the whims of the owners.  The political system doesn't really work when it comes to sports & entertainment.
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Postby lock+load » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:46 pm

aknowledgeableperson wrote:Give me a break.  The KC market is not ready for a new tower construction in the dt area and a stadium would not change that.


You confuse "KC" with "AKPC."  Sure, the old-fart south KC crowd has no interest in DT condos or baseball, but don't pretend you are the majority.

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Postby aknowledgeableperson » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:01 pm

The comment was about towers "already" going up.  Since it has not been that long since the election who is to say that the area would already have a commitment for a dt stadium, even a location.

Nowhere on the ballot was there a plan for a dt stadium.
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Postby Maitre D » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:13 pm

aknowledgeableperson wrote:Nowhere on the ballot was there a plan for a dt stadium.



Nowhere on the November midterm ballott was a method to end the Iraq War.  So clearly, polls showing 70%+ of the public being in opposition, are obviously incorrect.

:&
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Postby jlbomega » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:36 pm

Maitre D wrote:I've made that point so many times on the board.   A blazing contradiction so blinding, I can't believe people continue to deny it.

You're exactly right, and one day, I have faith this city will fully discover that obv. fact.    We've made a ton of progress the past 5 years fortunately.  But we have work to do.


I have finally come to the conclusion that this city cannot do anything right the first time... or second time for that matter.  Look no further than Kemper Arena.  It was dumb to build the arena in a warehouse district blocked from downtown by highways, it was even more dumb to rennovate it, and finally on the third go around we got it right building a downtown arena.

I predict a similar fate for the TSC.  While I believe Arrowhead will always be (and should be) in its current place, we should have NEVER moved baseball from downtown.  However we did (just like we moved Kemper to the warehouse abyss), now we made the stupid decision to rennovate it, and in another 10-15 years we are going to start talking about how we should have baseball downtown.

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Postby Maitre D » Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:01 pm

Exactly.  Well said JLB.

My dad was at a fundraising dinner recently and a semi-famous KCian said at the table:  "You know, sometimes it takes KC a while to do something.  But that's only b/c when we do things, we do it right the 1st time"  He said he almost barfed up his dinner.  However, this type of thinking is still prevalent in our city and yet people wonder why we continue to lose ground.

The only area not losing ground is...ta da....JoCo.  B/c we don't think that way.  And inasmuch as I dislike most of suburbia, what living choice is a Gen Xer to make in this town?

We have people like AKP telling us the DT park was dumb.  ("We got a good deal" was his exact quote).  But why are people out in Belton driving the long-term decisions of the city?  His ilk will be deceased long before those renovation bonds will be retired.

I would make a simple argument:  people who won't pay the bills, shouldn't be leaving them for the younger generation.  Why should I be saddled with his decision, when I can promise that the 40 & under crowd didn't want the TSC reno'd?
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Postby kcdcchef » Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:29 pm

Maitre D wrote: when I can promise that the 40 & under crowd didn't want the TSC reno'd?



back this up with facts, please. there are many on this board that are 25 and under that railed to keep kauffman where it was, i can back that up. ( need the posters names??? ))

dont come on here spewing your bullshit poisonous venim unless you can back it up. show stats that prove which demo wanted kauffman where it was. there HAVE BEEN graphs showing that many voted to keep it where it was out of fear of losing the teams, regardless of age breakdown. that horseshit opinion you pass as fact, has about 50 or so posters here rallying behind it, but that hardly makes it fact. you still don't get the difference between your opinion, and fact, do you ppa.

THE STADIUM RENOVATION VOTE PASSED IN APRIL OF 2006, 53-47, A NICE HEALTHY MARGIN. PLEASE LET IT GO, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU GIRLS KEEP BELLYACHING, IT WILL NOT CHANGE IT. SOME OF YOU POSTERS ARE LIKE THE OLD SOUTH, YOU REFUSE TO EVER LET IT DIE!!!!!!!!
MU FINISHED THE YEAR RANKED HIGHER IN HOOPS AND FOOTBALL THAN THE KAY U JAYDORKS. UP YOURS KAY U JAYDORK FANS!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

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Postby aknowledgeableperson » Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:34 pm

jlbomega wrote:I have finally come to the conclusion that this city cannot do anything right the first time... or second time for that matter.  Look no further than Kemper Arena.  It was dumb to build the arena in a warehouse district blocked from downtown by highways, it was even more dumb to rennovate it, and finally on the third go around we got it right building a downtown arena.

I predict a similar fate for the TSC.  While I believe Arrowhead will always be (and should be) in its current place, we should have NEVER moved baseball from downtown.  However we did (just like we moved Kemper to the warehouse abyss), now we made the stupid decision to rennovate it, and in another 10-15 years we are going to start talking about how we should have baseball downtown.


First, there was never the option to build Kemper DT.  Because of the urgency imposed on the city by the NHL the city had to work fast, very fast to build an arena.  $10M came from a general obligation bond issue approved by the voters in the 50's specifically for an arena for the American Royal.  Other funds came from the Kemper family specifically as a benefit for the American Royal, not for the Scouts or the Kings.  To benefit the American Royal the arena had to be built in the West Bottoms.  Yes, how the money was spent to renovate the arena was not correct (it should have been used on dressing rooms and other back stage areas as well as a west entrance to match the east entrance).

Second, KC never had baseball downtown.  I do not believe you will find many who will say that 22nd and Brooklyn is dt.

And MD there still was not an option on the ballot for a dt arena so given the results of that election it would appear that the majority wanted TSC baseball.  And Belton is in Cass County, not Jackson so Belton had no say in this matter.  And given the current mortality tables I will still be alive when the bonds are retired.  And do you have any poll numbers of the under 40 vote?  Just the ones who voted or any other comprehensive poll showing break down of support/non-support by age.  Come on now, back up what you say.
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Postby Maitre D » Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:59 pm

aknowledgeableperson wrote:And MD there still was not an option on the ballot for a dt arena so given the results of that election it would appear that the majority wanted TSC baseball.


You've got one mighty thick noggin, don't you?

One more time....altho I'm sure you still won't understand....the public's will isn't always put on ballott.  We don't have a vote on whether to continue in Iraq, and we don't have an option on what to do with TSC.

You still haven't figured out that this deal was driven by the ownership of hte 2 teams.  It had very little to do with the public's preference.  Why is this so hard to understand?
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Postby kcdcchef » Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:57 pm

Maitre D wrote: and we don't have an option on what to do with TSC.





yes, you did. on april 2nd, 2006, jackson county taxpayers got to go to the polls and vote. and they voted yes.
MU FINISHED THE YEAR RANKED HIGHER IN HOOPS AND FOOTBALL THAN THE KAY U JAYDORKS. UP YOURS KAY U JAYDORK FANS!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

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Postby mean » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:02 pm

I think chef's hard drive has some bad sectors.
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Postby kcmetro » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:03 pm

kcdcchef wrote:
yes, you did. on april 2nd, 2006, jackson county taxpayers got to go to the polls and vote. and they voted yes.



They weren't given the option of a downtown stadium. Why is that so hard to understand?

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Postby kcdcchef » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:17 pm

kcmetro wrote:They weren't given the option of a downtown stadium. Why is that so hard to understand?


ummm, look at it how you want. the players involved, the taxpayer, the ownership, and goverment, had the option of forcing the issue. they did not. if people wanted a dt stadium, the question would have failed 20-80. instead it passed.

save it. it failed. so did the idea of a few dozen random forum posters. move on, save your love for the wheatfields.

btw, metro, since the tsc is in an old field, why are you not excited for it??
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Postby Maitre D » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:19 pm

kcdcchef wrote:yes, you did. on april 2nd, 2006, jackson county taxpayers got to go to the polls and vote. and they voted yes.


Did the anti-war crowd have a vote in November?
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