NHL OR NBA, let the message board decide!!

[KansasCityCraka]

Since the arena will be in Independence I will probably never go although I would like to see some hockey. That arena will not service anyone from KS just like the Olathe/Overland Park arena wouldn't have supported any MO people. These are to far out to gain intrest from the whole metro area. Play in the MUNI! or at hale since it wont need over 10,500 seats. 

[AllThingsKC]

Since the arena will be in Independence I will probably never go although I would like to see some hockey. That arena will not service anyone from KS just like the Olathe/Overland Park arena wouldn't have supported any MO people. These are to far out to gain intrest from the whole metro area. Play in the MUNI! 

If there are enough hockey fans in JoCo, I think a CHL team in Independence might actually succeed.  People in MO support the T-Bones, and they're not even in the only baseball team in town.  So, I can see KS people supporting a CHL team if they ARE the only hockey team.  Now, if we get an NHL team, all bets are off.

[phxcat]

They might actually support each other.  People who become hockey fans from watching the Preds may start looking at attending CHL games because of the price.  That's what has happened here with the Roadrunners, of the old IHL.  On the other hand, the existence of a CHL team in Independence (as well as any youth/ high school leagues that may start using the arena) may help to cement a hockey fanbase in KC, helping the Preds to succeed.

[Maitre D]

.  People in MO support the T-Bones, and they're not even in the only baseball team in town. 

Puh-leeze.  I would bet that no more than 10% of the TBones fans come from KCMO. 

[KansasCityCraka]

Puh-leeze.  I would bet that no more than 10% of the TBones fans come from KCMO. 

Most of the people who go to T-Bones games are from WYCO or JOCO. I would say 10% from MOI is probably about right.

[Gretz]

The t-bones do OK because a) the Royals suck so bad and b) the ultra-sheltered pro-family environment the delicate sensibilities of some require reigns supreme there.  I went to one game and nearly stepped on/knocked over little kids on numerous occasions and endured heavily judgemental/angry/fearfull stares from parents a) anytime even a FCC approved, class two cuss-word was uttered b) when I and my friend bought and consumed one beer c)found myself standing near their child through no fault of my own apparently looking kinda funny; like a possible child-abductor some glances/body language seemed to suggest.  I haven't seen any figures or anything but I'll bet they leach support from the Royals, both in the form of disgruntled Royal's fans and the demo that is delighted that they can now take their precious progeny to a semi-pro ball game without exposing them to the beer-drinking, cussing and just-plain-dirty working/lower-middle class rabble.  A minor league hockey team in town with a similar image could do the same to an NHL team, I'd guess.

 I would guess that this team would either leach a little from an NHL team or fail dissmally competing with the NHL.  The only plus side I see is that maybe the facility could be used as a practice venue for an NHL team either while the CHL is there or after they leave, handily pushing the financial burden off of KCMO and onto a suburb for once.  Also, as a youth hockey league site/center (and place for ten year-olds' birthday parties) it could be a plus to hockey culture.  Maybe I'm just missing it, but this looks REALLY stupid on the part of Independence leaders and residents to push this right as a possible Preds deal looms...

[GRID]

The teebones are a total ks attraction.  Very few even know about them on the mo side or care.

The indep arena would be the same deal for kansans.  JoCo people are even less likely to drive to Indep as LS people are to the speedway.

I am in the Indep Center area (or eastern jax in general) all the time and you almost NEVER see Kansas cars over there unless they are traveling through town on the way to the lake or StL and a "few" kansans work at the offices buildings, stores etc.

It's not like when you on College Blvd or Oak Park Mall or Town Center and half the cars are MO cars.  You can even get as far out as Olathe and Shawnee and still have 20-30% of the traffic be MO cars.

One reason for that is that there is simply a lot more MO residents than KS. I won't get into the other reasons

Still, that Indep arena will have a market even larger than the Olatha arena.  It will probably work just fine there.  I just want some ice.

[GRID]

http://kansascity.bizjournals.com/kansa ... rround=lfn
What's with the minor league team and building out a whole new stadium in Independence?  Doesn't that seem pretty stupid if there is a real possibility of an NHL team coming to town?  Wouldn't the team just wither with disinterest if the Preds or somebody moved into town?  That either seems like a big vote of no-confidence in the city's ability to get an NHL team on Independence's part, or just a really stupid risk on their part.  Would make much more sense to use Kemper like the blades did.  Of course the burbs are always drooling for entertainement venues, but if an NHL team shows up in a year or two, before their stadium is even built, aren't they just going to get hosed on the 50 mill as no one comes to see the new team and they lose money and eventually leave?  Or do they hope that an NHL team might breed MORE interest in the minor league team?  Are there hopes that the stadium could also serve as a practice facility for an NHL team?  Thoughts?

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere on this board, but I'm unfamiliar with the threads in this room and didn't want to dig around for hours.  If this discussion has been going on elsewhere please feel free to direct me there.   

A CHL team would never work at Kemper.  Think about the fanbase of the CHL.  It mostly just suburban families that want something else to do besides see a movie, mini golf, bowling etc.  There is simply no reason for people to drive downtown for a CHL product.  The drive is longer, you have to deal with parking, etc.  A lot of people just came from there and don't want to go home and get the family and drive back.  Plus a CHL team in an arena larger than 6k creates a horrible atmosphere and the impression that nobody is there and it's a failure (much like the wizards at arrowhead).

The same people that might go to a CHL game are the same people that might not have considered going downtown for the NHL.  But after a taste of hockey, it could grow on them.

You have to remember, this is not a 10-12k seat arena like Olathe wanted.  This is not going to be an AHL team which would totally threaten a local NHL team.  There is way too much overlap in fan base and the product is much closer, plus AHL teams must draw bigger crowds.

This a small arena.  I would actually call it a community center on steroids.  A community ice rink, a place to hold graduations for much of the MO side, smaller concerts that would otherwise go to Hale or Memorial (both suck IMO), big basketball games, even state finals etc.   The Blues practice at Mills in St Charles.  The Wizards practice at Sports City in Blue Springs, so it would definitely be considered by the NHL club if we got one.

The main reason Indep wants to do this is because they have serious issues that will be coming up in the next few years.  Blue Springs and Lee's Summit are on the verge of becoming self sustaining and will no longer be supporting that area like they do now.

80% of the traffic that supports the Indep Mall area are BS and LS residents and other areas east and south of BS and LS.

The area has already become the only place to shop, see a movie etc for much of the urban core to the west.  The "thug" portion of that crowd, which tend to avoid places like Oak Park, Zona Rosa etc have already began to damage the area's reputation.  I see and hear it all the time.  Parents not sure about the mall because of the F-bombs etc and lack of control.

All I'm saying is I see an exact duplicate of what happened to Bannister Mall.  It couldn't more similar.

Bass Pro and this Arena might keep the area a "destination" and keep it from caving in on itself in 5-10 years.

This area needs to have the suburban and urban support while controlling those that just want to hang out and intimidate people.

This is why Indep is putting so much effort into Bass Pro and this arena.  If the area around Indep Center sputters out, that city is in BIG TROUBLE.  They will be out of money and the city would turn ghetto so fast it wouldn't be funny.

I think  it's a great move by the city and it makes much more sense than OP, Olathe, Belton, Lee's Summit or Blue Springs doing the same thing.  Much more.

[jim040558]

I do so enjoy some of the pontifications that I read on this board, like JoCo folks don't come to Missouri, and Independence shopping is about to die.

Have any of you followed the development of the Highway 40 corridor? It has grown at a really fast rate. It might not surprise you to know that my wife and I travel from Lenexa to go to Nature's Pantry on Highway 40 near 470/291. What may surprise you however is that after they opened up that store, one of the owners told me that 10% or more of their business comes from JoCo folks making the trek over just to go to that store, and they further believe that the Bass Pro Shop will be a regional destination, and will draw from all around the metro, helping their biz too.

Regarding Independence Center, I can only say that all kinds of enclosed malls around the country have begun to struggle, and I believe that it is due to changing shopping habits. The great thing about that is that these malls closing frees up valuable land that can be redeveloped, such as Mission Center on Shawnee Mission Parkway, which is being rebuilt as a lifestyle center with shopping, condos, and a hotel. Rather than seeing the demise of Independence, look at how the land to the east of the mall has exploded with development along with the 40 Highway corridor.

My personal feeling is that people all over the metro have entertainment and other disposable dollars to spend, whether it's a movie or a minor league hockey team. I talk to lots of people who love watching the T-Bones at Community America Ballpark, and it is a totally different experience than going to a Royal's game. Rather than fight for dollars, minor league, youth and adult leagues feed interest in the sport, which might even help an NHL team.

Next time you are in your local bank, ask a senior loan officer about demographic info that they subscribe to, showing income, population, and growth trends within 3 miles, 5 miles, and further out from a given development. The info is not guesswork and amazingly specific, including growth trends for the next 5 to 10 years. Independence, for example, is actually on a program of TIF funding which has already yielded dividends in economic development, especially at the confluence of 70, 40, and 470/291.

Ideas for development of anything are always a dime a dozen. It is the proper execution which determines success.

Carry on.

[KCFutbol]

Or it might be a situation similar to the T-Bones, a minor league team that does quite nicely in spite of the fact that the Royals are in town.  A CHL team will only need to draw 4000 or so to succeed, at cheaper prices, although at a considerably lesser skill level on the ice.  But if it entertains enough people, it probably will succeed.

I'm not a great fan of the CHL, but what some of you don't understand is that is an increasingly self-contained organization--they build the arena, they run the arena, they own the team, and in general, they own the Central Hockey League.  Unlike the Outlaws, they will have owners that will take the promotion of the game seriously.  The only question will be is if enough people in the Metro will buy into it.

The CHL is a step up from the UHL, Goon Leage vs Beer League. This is not the CHL you old-timers remember fro the 60's and 70's.

[GRID]

dude, before you go off again...

First let me say that I agree with your post.

Second, live at 470 and 40 and know what's going on here.

I realize there are exceptions.  I know that Nature's Pantry is a regional store.  But there are not many stores like that on this side of town and who knows when a similar store will open in Lenexa or something.

We shop and eat in this area several times a week.

What I'm saying is that BS and LS are getting ready to build millions of sq ft of new retail.  BS/GV is an area of 75,000 people.  LS and its area is over 100,000.  If you live in BS, you spend a ton of money in Indep.  BS had a shitty walmart only a few years again.  They have just built a new one, a home depot and will soon construct another walmart and two lowes stores, a target and a 750k shopping center.  LS will soon build three major shopping centers between Indep Center and Summit Woods and the redevelopment of the Woods Chapel golf course into retail and the opening of the Strother Rd interchange has developers lined up and waiting.  Not only will LS and BS keep their own tax dollars, but they will intercept all the outer rural counties that now come to Indep Center and all the surrounding shopping centers.

I'm telling you, even on the weekends, you see very few people from JoCo on this side of town, bass pro might change that, but most people in JoCo have very little interest coming to Independence to shop.

Once new centers open futher out in BS, LS, GV etc, the area will need to get creative to maintain itself as a destination.

And don't kid yourself.  Independence is a small KCMO.  It has its share of crime etc and that does make its way into the area.  There has been quite a few car chases, shootings etc in the area around the mall.  It's nothing to freak out about.  It's a built up and very diverse area and it happens a lot in areas like that, but it does happen more often in the area around Indep Center than say zona rosa or oak park.  There is just an element at the mall and around the mall that other area malls don't have to deal with. Does it bother me?  Absolutely not.  But I do go to little league games, I hang out with the other parents and I know what people are saying.  When I moved to the "suburbs" last time, it was to 87th and Blue Ridge.  I watched the ten year boom and bust of the entire Bannister Mall area.  I just don't want that to happen again.  I'm not saying it will, but the city is being smart to take pre-emtive actions.

Indep is the area's urban mall now since bannister mall closed.

The area needs to cater to that and deal with those that want to cause trouble right away and I think Indep police are doing the best they can.

Building the ice complex and arena, bass pro and other development will keep the area a destination when the competition begins to get rough.

As far at the tbones, I only stated that most people out here have no interest in that.  It's just too far away.  Just like few people from KS will make their way over to the arena for hockey, yet the market of the area which stretches into the northland and cass county has more suburban households than JoCo, so it should be fine.

[DowntownBryan]

The CHL is a step up from the UHL, Goon Leage vs Beer League. This is not the CHL you old-timers remember fro the 60's and 70's.

Wow. You are a jackass.

[jim040558]

I'm totally with you on the preemptive action to control crime at Independence Center. I also believe that in 10 to 15 years that mall will be closed, due to changing consumer habits.

But, that entire shopping area has major interstates to help feed it, and so if the Independence planners and developers continue executing good developments, The area will not only remain viable, it will prosper.

Local sports like minor league hockey venues, like the T-Bones and their park, can really thrive there with good ownership. Very few people would have told you 10 years ago that Wyandotte county could do anything right in development, yet one mayor, Carol Marinovich, changed all that. They not only have a regional shopping destination, they have a great baseball venue and a NATIONAL IRL/NASCAR 100,000 person Speedway. I am not a Wyandotte native, (or JoCo for that matter) but please go and visit all that is in the Village West vicinity now. It is truly amazing.

And not an accident.

[GRID]

I'm totally with you on the preemptive action to control crime at Independence Center. I also believe that in 10 to 15 years that mall will be closed, due to changing consumer habits.

But, that entire shopping area has major interstates to help feed it, and so if the Independence planners and developers continue executing good developments, The area will not only remain viable, it will prosper.

Local sports like minor league hockey venues, like the T-Bones and their park, can really thrive there with good ownership. Very few people would have told you 10 years ago that Wyandotte county could do anything right in development, yet one mayor, Carol Marinovich, changed all that. They not only have a regional shopping destination, they have a great baseball venue and a NATIONAL IRL/NASCAR 100,000 person Speedway. I am not a Wyandotte native, (or JoCo for that matter) but please go and visit all that is in the Village West vicinity now. It is truly amazing.

And not an accident.

We get out to VW quite often actually.  Don't get into tbones games (have been to a couple), but we have gone out to D&B, Legends, the theater, restaurants etc.  We have also spent 1000's at NFM.  I did go to Cabella's once and that was enough for me .  We wonder out there because we are all over this city all the time.  It's nothing to hop in the car and end up hitting 3/4 of the metro on a Sat afternoon just goofing off.  But I can speak from experience, we are the extreme exception.  Most people just have no interest in that, we do.  I would imagine most on this forum are more likely to get out and experience the entire city than a typical KC resident as well, so bear that in mind.

It would be cool if the Indep Bass Pro got a few few JoCoer's out on this side of town.  They are just now beginning to realize what is up north. Maybe they will see it's actually pretty nice out east too .

[KCFutbol]

Wow. You are a jackass.

Can you explain your reasoning for this attack?

[KansasCityCraka]

Wow. You are a jackass.

Uncalled for, this is a public forum where people can express things how they see it and although you are doing that aswell you could have done it in a better fashion.

[KCMax]

Plus, wasn't KCFutbol basically right? The UHL is a joke league and the Central League is a step above a joke league. I really wouldn't care to watch either to be honest.

[Topeka Blade]

The CHL is a step up from the UHL, Goon Leage vs Beer League. This is not the CHL you old-timers remember fro the 60's and 70's.

Believe me, I understand that the current CHL is not like the CHL of the 1960s and 1970s.  I laugh when they claim to be a Double-A league and that they are developing players for the NHL.  If you had seen my comments over the years on the old Blades' message board, HockeyKC, and now HockeyMidwest, you'd know exactly how I feel about the CHL.

But I think you missed my point.  It's also not the circus that Horn Chen started in the early 1990s.  After watching two abortive attempts here in Topeka under that regime, I believe Chen is now completely out of the CHL.

The CHL now actually runs on something that looks like a business plan and while it may still have a few clinkers in its team ownerships, most are relatively stable now, thanks to Global Entertainment owning and controlling the league.  The hockey hasn't really changed--it still is going to be players coming down the ladder or players who will never go up the ladder--but they are doing a better job of marketing it.  That's something the UHL--now renamed as the new International Hockey League--has never learned.

In short--you may not like their brand of hockey, but the CHL should not be brushed aside easily.  They don't have to draw 14,000+ a game like the NHL, and they won't be charging NHL prices.  If they find and keep their audience, they'll be around for awhile, regardless of whether or not there's an NHL team in town.

[KCFutbol]

Believe me, I understand that the current CHL is not like the CHL of the 1960s and 1970s.  I laugh when they claim to be a Double-A league and that they are developing players for the NHL.  If you had seen my comments over the years on the old Blades' message board, HockeyKC, and now HockeyMidwest, you'd know exactly how I feel about the CHL.

But I think you missed my point.  It's also not the circus that Horn Chen started in the early 1990s.  After watching two abortive attempts here in Topeka under that regime, I believe Chen is now completely out of the CHL.

The CHL now actually runs on something that looks like a business plan and while it may still have a few clinkers in its team ownerships, most are relatively stable now, thanks to Global Entertainment owning and controlling the league.  The hockey hasn't really changed--it still is going to be players coming down the ladder or players who will never go up the ladder--but they are doing a better job of marketing it.  That's something the UHL--now renamed as the new International Hockey League--has never learned.

In short--you may not like their brand of hockey, but the CHL should not be brushed aside easily.  They don't have to draw 14,000+ a game like the NHL, and they won't be charging NHL prices.  If they find and keep their audience, they'll be around for awhile, regardless of whether or not there's an NHL team in town.

I wasn't commenting on the business acumen of the new ownership group. I'm commenting on the quality of play.

CHL is has beens, UHL (now new IHL) is a beer league. The old CHL/CPHL was a small step below the NHL. In Omaha we were affiliated with first the Canadiens and then the NY Rangers. It was good quality hockey. The UHL games I saw were anything but.

Why this opinion makes me a jackass in the mind of DowntownBryan, I don't know.

[Topeka Blade]

I wasn't commenting on the business acumen of the new ownership group. I'm commenting on the quality of play.

CHL is has beens, UHL (now new IHL) is a beer league. The old CHL/CPHL was a small step below the NHL. In Omaha we were affiliated with first the Canadiens and then the NY Rangers. It was good quality hockey. The UHL games I saw were anything but.

Why this opinion makes me a jackass in the mind of DowntownBryan, I don't know.

Sounds like we agree about the quality of play, so I guess I'm a member of the jackass club, too.

I'm guessing if we start a website, www.kcjackasses.com, we'll have a rather large membership . . .

And in case you're trying it, people, that's not a real website . . .