2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by AllThingsKC »

WHAT ABOUT GOTTLIEB!!!!
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

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That would sure goose the KU rivalry.
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by DiggityDawg »

Yeah...I don't get the KSU hire at ALL. Good for my Hawks, but a headscratcher.
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by grovester »

DiggityDawg wrote:Yeah...I don't get the KSU hire at ALL. Good for my Hawks, but a headscratcher.
Not sure I think it's bad. Always thought he was pretty good. Not sure what was happening at IU the past few years.
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

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Gun in mouth
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by KCMax »

I don't really get why the reaction has been so overwhelmingly negative. He's been to a Championship game. He took SIU to a Sweet 16. The guy can coach. Can he recruit? We'll see. But KSU fans seemed to be all over guys like Tad Boyle, who haven't exactly proved they can win with "their guys" yet.
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by kcmetro »

KCMax wrote:I don't really get why the reaction has been so overwhelmingly negative. He's been to a Championship game. He took SIU to a Sweet 16. The guy can coach. Can he recruit? We'll see. But KSU fans seemed to be all over guys like Tad Boyle, who haven't exactly proved they can win with "their guys" yet.
He went to the championship game with Bill Self's recruits. What has he done since that '04/'05 season? Honestly I haven't followed Illinois very closely since then, but the fact that they haven't shown up on my radar tells me all I need to know. I suppose he can coach a little bit, but I figured KSU could get a much better coach than this. Maybe he'll prove me wrong.
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by KCMax »

In the last seven years, Webber has been a #4 seed, #5 seed, #9 seed, #12 seed, and has missed the tourney three times.

In five years, Martin led KSU to be a #2 seed, #5 seed, #8 seed, a #11 seed, and missed the tourney once.

I guess I don't see a huge difference, other than the trendlines. I think a change of scenery will do Webber good and he'll be able to keep the program running at the level they ere.
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by KCPowercat »

I'm no Martin defender either
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by kcmetro »

I wonder if Willie is smiling under that mask.

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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by KCMax »

KCPowercat wrote:I'm no Martin defender either
Then KSU fans are being delusional. Martin took the Cats to their best five year stretch since - what, Jack Hartman? To think someone else would have a better track record than Weber or Martin and would willingly come to Manhattan is ridiculous.

Its silly that people are being so critical. Who was just named Big 12 Coach of the Year? A guy who EVERYONE hated as a hire less than a year ago. Mizzou fans weren't wild about Gary Pinkel. KU fans weren't wild about Mark Mangino. KSU fans weren't very pleased with the hiring of Frank Martin. All those fanbases were wrong.

This sums it up perfectly. Mizzou fans were thrilled with this hire. I don't know if they would have been as happy with the guy the passed over - Bill Self.

http://archive.columbiatribune.com/1999 ... spor01.htm
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

KCMax wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:I'm no Martin defender either
Then KSU fans are being delusional. Martin took the Cats to their best five year stretch since - what, Jack Hartman? To think someone else would have a better track record than Weber or Martin and would willingly come to Manhattan is ridiculous.

Its silly that people are being so critical. Who was just named Big 12 Coach of the Year? A guy who EVERYONE hated as a hire less than a year ago. Mizzou fans weren't wild about Gary Pinkel. KU fans weren't wild about Mark Mangino. KSU fans weren't very pleased with the hiring of Frank Martin. All those fanbases were wrong.

This sums it up perfectly. Mizzou fans were thrilled with this hire. I don't know if they would have been as happy with the guy the passed over - Bill Self.

http://archive.columbiatribune.com/1999 ... spor01.htm
Are you serious? I'd rather have Underwood, Henson, Eustachy or Gottlieb (assuming he had a really good staff together) and they were all OPENLY campaigning for the job. Weber got turned down for the SMU job.

And, I don't think K-State fans were negative on Frank when he was hired. Many didn't like it (like any hire) but I think most fans were neutral to happy. There definitely wasn't a big uproar like this hire or like the Haith hire (and, sorry, Haith hasn't proven anything yet). It's also different with Haith. Haith has huge advantages at Mizzou over Miami. I could be wrong but it seems like Illinois has many advantages over K-State and Weber still couldn't consistently win in Champagne and his trendline was clearly moving down.
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by KCPowercat »

First off me not being a Frank defender doesn't paint the kstate fanbase as anything. Second what exactly are you saying ksu fans are delusional about?
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by KCMax »

TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Are you serious? I'd rather have Underwood, Henson, Eustachy or Gottlieb (assuming he had a really good staff together) and they were all OPENLY campaigning for the job. Weber got turned down for the SMU job.
Those are all fine candidates who aside from Eustachy are completely unproven. You really have little idea with what you're getting.I'm not saying Weber is a better candidate than them (although I think he is) but he's arguably just as good and I really don't get the angst and ire over this hire.

As for Eustachy - he did pretty much what Weber did, right? Win a lot his first three years, then suck after that. They wouldn't have fired him for the drinking thing if he was still winning. At least Weber could get past the second round.
KCPowercat wrote:First off me not being a Frank defender doesn't paint the kstate fanbase as anything. Second what exactly are you saying ksu fans are delusional about?
I'm saying they're delusional if they think they can bring in a coach with a better track record than Bruce Weber or Frank Martin.
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by KCPowercat »

LOL so Frank went from being a foolish high school coach hire to the best ksu fans should ever expect hire. Okay.
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by KCMax »

KCPowercat wrote:LOL so Frank went from being a foolish high school coach hire to the best ksu fans should ever expect hire. Okay.
Did he not? He illustrates my point perfectly. No one gave him much of a chance, and look what he did. Hey, it happened at KU too. Roy Williams was what, KU's 7th or 8th option after they'd been turned down by the likes of Eddie Fogler? He was some foolish hire with no coaching experience.

My only real point is we don't really know how Weber will do, so all the teeth-gnashing is beyond silly. Its not like Webber was some horrible coach - he's coached in a freaking national championship game. If he can do what he did at Illinois at K-State, I think Wildcat fans will and should be thrilled.
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by bobbyhawks »

KCMax wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:LOL so Frank went from being a foolish high school coach hire to the best ksu fans should ever expect hire. Okay.
Did he not? He illustrates my point perfectly. No one gave him much of a chance, and look what he did. Hey, it happened at KU too. Roy Williams was what, KU's 7th or 8th option after they'd been turned down by the likes of Eddie Fogler? He was some foolish hire with no coaching experience.

My only real point is we don't really know how Weber will do, so all the teeth-gnashing is beyond silly. Its not like Webber was some horrible coach - he's coached in a freaking national championship game. If he can do what he did at Illinois at K-State, I think Wildcat fans will and should be thrilled.
Weber has been given plenty of chances. He had 9 seasons at a major university in a major conference to prove he could excel. His best season in the last 6 years was a 10 loss season in which they lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament. His Kenpom.com rankings at Illinois have gone 12, 2, 11, 33, 40, 24, 53, 18, 72. For comparison, Martin was 17, 44, 7, 30, 25, and he wasn't THE major univeristy in one of the biggest states in the union. I just don't see how Weber is suddenly going to land quality players at KSU. He is by all reports a terrific human being, but when that is the first thing people say about you as a coach, it is a pretty big red flag. I really hope he continues what Martin got on track, and perhaps Illinois was just a bad situation, but this hire sounds like Currie thinks he is smarter than everyone else. KSU fans better hope Currie isn't around to hire the next football coach, or you will end up with some "quality individual" retread.
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by TheBigChuckbowski »

KCMax wrote:
TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Are you serious? I'd rather have Underwood, Henson, Eustachy or Gottlieb (assuming he had a really good staff together) and they were all OPENLY campaigning for the job. Weber got turned down for the SMU job.
Those are all fine candidates who aside from Eustachy are completely unproven. You really have little idea with what you're getting.I'm not saying Weber is a better candidate than them (although I think he is) but he's arguably just as good and I really don't get the angst and ire over this hire.

As for Eustachy - he did pretty much what Weber did, right? Win a lot his first three years, then suck after that. They wouldn't have fired him for the drinking thing if he was still winning. At least Weber could get past the second round.
He did not do what Weber did. He didn't have Self's players. Iowa State went 12-18 in Tim Floyd's last year and then it took him a year to start winning Big 12 championships. He was doing that with Floyd's mediocre players and his own. He's also built up Southern Miss from 2-14 in Conference USA his first season to make the NCAA tournament this year. Don't get me wrong, I didn't want Eustachy but I do think he's a better hire than Weber.

You're right that all those candidates are unproven. I will take unproven any day of the week over proven mediocrity at a basketball power.

What reasoning do you have that Bruce Weber would do any better at K-State than his final seven years at Illinois? There is none. Sorry, but I don't want a coach that can't get past the second round with his own players.
KCMax wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:LOL so Frank went from being a foolish high school coach hire to the best ksu fans should ever expect hire. Okay.
Did he not? He illustrates my point perfectly. No one gave him much of a chance, and look what he did. Hey, it happened at KU too. Roy Williams was what, KU's 7th or 8th option after they'd been turned down by the likes of Eddie Fogler? He was some foolish hire with no coaching experience.

My only real point is we don't really know how Weber will do, so all the teeth-gnashing is beyond silly. Its not like Webber was some horrible coach - he's coached in a freaking national championship game. If he can do what he did at Illinois at K-State, I think Wildcat fans will and should be thrilled.
This proves my point about taking an unproven coach over Bruce Weber. How many unproven coaches went on to do great things after becoming head coach? Tons. How many coaches that got fired from a BCS school for on-court performance went on to do great things? None.
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by bobbyhawks »

Oh yeah...

Rock Chalk!

Completely tall order tonight as their talent should overwhelm us once again, but quite a few stranger things have happened (and longer long shots) in the championship game. To me, the game comes down to Kentucky from 3 land. If they are dropping them, we have little chance unless we finally drop them as well. It does not appear that KU is ready to really even attempt that many, and it remains to be seen how much Self will play Teahen vs. Kentucky's athleticism. Young may get more minutes due to his all over the place abilities for rebounding and blocking shots.

Cal said they might throw a zone at us, so I can't wait to get Withey distributing from the middle/free throw area. Kentucky is like a rich man's Baylor, and they have a coach that can coach on top of that, but they still fall back on pure talent every now and again. If KU does not rush on offense, they have a shot to keep the game close. They (Kentucky) are way better than us from 3 (+3.5%), and generally better across the board or equal to us in every other offensive category. However, they actually shoot fewer 3s than we do, so part of their high percentage could be from quality shot selection (and Lamb's 47%).

Fortunately, our defense has been our savior, but they have the best effective FG% defense in the nation (ours is 5th and eFG% includes 2s and 3s). We are better overall at defensive rebounding and getting steals. We are almost identical in bench minutes, so fouls will be a problem for both teams. They are +1.9 inches in effective height, but the overall team height is near identical (meaning their tall guys play more minutes). This makes Withey playing big minutes and not getting in trouble another important factor for KU.

With that, I'm headed up to Lawrence. Enjoy the show!
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Re: 2011 - 2012 College Basketball Season

Post by KCMax »

TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
KCMax wrote:
TheBigChuckbowski wrote:
Are you serious? I'd rather have Underwood, Henson, Eustachy or Gottlieb (assuming he had a really good staff together) and they were all OPENLY campaigning for the job. Weber got turned down for the SMU job.
Those are all fine candidates who aside from Eustachy are completely unproven. You really have little idea with what you're getting.I'm not saying Weber is a better candidate than them (although I think he is) but he's arguably just as good and I really don't get the angst and ire over this hire.

As for Eustachy - he did pretty much what Weber did, right? Win a lot his first three years, then suck after that. They wouldn't have fired him for the drinking thing if he was still winning. At least Weber could get past the second round.
He did not do what Weber did. He didn't have Self's players. Iowa State went 12-18 in Tim Floyd's last year and then it took him a year to start winning Big 12 championships. He was doing that with Floyd's mediocre players and his own. He's also built up Southern Miss from 2-14 in Conference USA his first season to make the NCAA tournament this year. Don't get me wrong, I didn't want Eustachy but I do think he's a better hire than Weber.

You're right that all those candidates are unproven. I will take unproven any day of the week over proven mediocrity at a basketball power.

What reasoning do you have that Bruce Weber would do any better at K-State than his final seven years at Illinois? There is none. Sorry, but I don't want a coach that can't get past the second round with his own players.
KCMax wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:LOL so Frank went from being a foolish high school coach hire to the best ksu fans should ever expect hire. Okay.
Did he not? He illustrates my point perfectly. No one gave him much of a chance, and look what he did. Hey, it happened at KU too. Roy Williams was what, KU's 7th or 8th option after they'd been turned down by the likes of Eddie Fogler? He was some foolish hire with no coaching experience.

My only real point is we don't really know how Weber will do, so all the teeth-gnashing is beyond silly. Its not like Webber was some horrible coach - he's coached in a freaking national championship game. If he can do what he did at Illinois at K-State, I think Wildcat fans will and should be thrilled.
This proves my point about taking an unproven coach over Bruce Weber. How many unproven coaches went on to do great things after becoming head coach? Tons. How many coaches that got fired from a BCS school for on-court performance went on to do great things? None.
Well we'll see. If all Weber is good at is taking other people's recruits and coaching them well in the tourney, K-State should be in for a good ride next year because they should have a good team next season.
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