Denver, CO - June 03

Do a trip report here....go to another city and want to relate it to what KC is doing right or could do better? Give us a summary in here.
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Denver, CO - June 03

Post by KCPowercat »

Went to Denver with a group of friends last weekend to catch a couple games at Coors field while the Royals were in town.

Arrived Friday afternoon after a long drive, stayed downtown at the Marriott, and immidately hit the 16th street mall. This is about a mile long street, closed to cars, that has retail/restaurants/offices on both sides. A free shuttle bus runs the length of the street. While many stores are of the chain variety, there is still a good mix of smaller chains and local shops. This would be absolutely awesome to have in KC, especially for us downtown residents. I really don't know how it supports that much retail when there is about 0 condos on 16th street and only about 5,000 people living in LoDo (by their own counts). Maybe people actually enjoy coming downtown and experiencing it. Anyways, this should be a model for any kind of SoLo development down south.

After spending some time there, we hit LoDo for the first time for the game....great collection of bars, independent restaurants, & lofts.....very naturally built out of old building stock and some new condos mixed in. Can really see how a downtown sports facility made this area boom. Great collection of bars with a high number of patios & rooftop seating areas....wish we had more of them here in KC.

Didn't get to see much else. For everything denver has done with their downtown area, what they are lacking is in attractions. In the 48 hours there, my friends who didn't join us for all the games, had to drive to a mountain town to find something to do....past 16th street and drinking in LoDo, it seems there is a lack of attractions that people w/o kids could take in....not everybody gets a kick of just walking downtown among a well kept area.

Larimer square is probably the coolest area....many sidewalk cafes and felt much more natural than it's 16th street neighbor...wish I had more time to eat at the local places there.

While it's easy to become jealous of what Denver has done with their downtown, there is much hope for KC....what they've done with this entire area has been completed in around 10 years...that is a very short time. Talking with people who saw these areas before, they had a downtown in much worse shape than KC has ever had.....it can be done and in a short time. All that is needed is the plan and the people to do it. Hopefully our new EDC director, Urdis and new City Manager from Denver, Cauthan (sp?) can bring this winning attitude from outside of KC into the area. While I'm not big on bringing things like Niketown, Wolfgang Puck's, etc. to the downtown area, having a retail/restaurant space where people can come and be together is a great thing...while much of 16th street is nice, it does almost have a fabricated feel...it wasn't built naturally and has lost some of the urban feel.

Also, what they have in downtown close together, they quickly lose. Downtown is very compact and the urban areas drop off quickly....there is nothing like a Plaza, City Market, Crossroads, 39th street, westport, brookside, etc...it all seems compact onto 16th street and Blake street (major LoDo street) not that this is all bad but it is still nice to have the unique urban areas that KC posesses.

Here are some picttures I took....

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Larmier Square
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Had to get one unflattering shot of Denver
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Love their loft architecture
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You can see the rest of the pictures here: http://www.kcskyscrapers.com/kcpics/Denver Didn't take as many as usual...wanted to go out on an urban hike on Saturday afternoon but the Royals game was rescheduled after the rainout, so didn't get to.

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Denver, CO - June 03

Post by tat2kc »

Cherry Creek is Denver's answer to plaza/brookisde. It a very very upscale shopping and dining area, with an enclosed mall and a walking district. Small homes in this area range from 300,000 to well over 1 Million. Denver is a great city, thats for sure. The only thing they have we don't (besides mountians) is light rail. I lived there for a while, and my partner's family is there. I still enjoy the city. Their aquarium when belly up for a while and was bought by another company.

Our downtown could look like theirs if we tried!
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Denver, CO - June 03

Post by KCPowercat »

So Cherry Creek is nothing like the plaza...more like the Galleria in Dallas or St. Louis maybe? The Plaza is so much more than the stores, that's what makes it special and unique to KC.
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Post by dangerboy »

Very interesting post. Among the people I know in Denver, the attraction of living there is the access to the mountains as much or more as the city itself.

Definitely true that Denver had fewer interesting urban neighborhoods outside of downtown. Much of the rest of Denver looks like Wornall Road in KC.

The picture of Coors Field reminds how weird it is to see an MLB stadium right up against the street, instead of up against a freeway with a sea of parking on three sides.

Don't forget that the Denver metro area is somethig like twice the size of greater KC. Their region has a lot more people to support the downtown, light rail, etc.

Denver has their fair share of sprawl - including the Denver Tech Center in the southeast suburbs (think Corporate Woods) and the U.S. 36 corridor towards Boulder in the northwest (think I-29 meets I-70/MO-291 meets Lawrence).

The thing really strikes me is how amazingly successful downtown Denver became so fast after the castrophic energy sector meltdown of the 1980s. Downtown KC never got as bad as a lot of other cities, yet somehow we have never rebounded as well either.
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Denver, CO - June 03

Post by CGPinFL »

Nice pics KC, especially Larimer Square, that place looks awesome!
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Post by KCgridlock »

dangerboy wrote: Don't forget that the Denver metro area is somethig like twice the size of greater KC. Their region has a lot more people to support the downtown, light rail, etc.
Actually Denver's market it not much bigger than KC.

There are over 2.4 million within 60 miles of Downtown KC.
I believe there are about 2.7 in the same area of Denver.

Denver has one primary urban satilite drawing city, Co Springs.

KC has many, Wichita, Des Moines, Omaha, Springfield, Columbia etc.

I am willing to bet that KC area attractions outdraw Denver's and even our convention business (even though down lately) is very close to Denver's.

KC's biggest problem is local pride. If we had our fair share of that and didn't have a state line ripping through our heart, we would blow the socks off Denver.
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Post by KC0KEK »

I spent almost a week there after Sept. 11. (I was flying to San Diego when the attacks started and was grounded in Denver.) I took Amtrak back, so I got to spend several hours in Denver's Union Station. It's about one-quarter the size of Kansas City's, and it's a bleak dump. The only food available is from a lunch counter, which opened about an hour before the train arrived. If you wanted something else, you had to hoof it. Fortunately, the 16th Street mall is nearby, as are plenty of restaurants. But in terms of size, amenities and condition, it can't hold a candle to our Union Station.

Maybe that will change. As I understand it, their commuter/light rail service will use Union Station, and a renovation is underway. But I don't see how it could become a destination, other than to catch a train. Unless they can find places to squeeze in a lot of restaurants and shops, there's not much to attract visitors other than commuters and railroad buffs.
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Post by dangerboy »

Another cool thing going on in Denver is the redevelopment of the old Stapleton airport site into a huge collection of mixed-use neighborhoods. It's an absolutely massive development with up to 30,000 residents.

http://www.stapletondenver.com/
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Denver, CO - June 03

Post by KCPowercat »

Yeah the mountains an hour away would be an attraction...just not for me...and not on short weekends like we had.

Denver isn't that much bigger actually....if you add Lawrence and St. Joe like they have added Boulder & Greeley to their census (similiar sizes and distances from downtown), we become even closer in size.
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Post by tat2kc »

the mall at cherry creek is more like the galleria in dallas, the outdoor shopping district is more of a cross between brookisde and the plaza. My sister-in-law lives in Cherry Creek. We always walk to Whole Foods or one of the small restaurants for breakfast, and my 5 year old nephew loves to ride his bike with me to the coffe shop to get steamed milk. His elementary school will be only 2 blocks away. The homes and lots are simliar to brookside. Even the new construction and infill are designed to blend in beautifully with the neighborhood. They live a great neighborhood in which eveyone knows their neighbors, kids can play outside, and you can walk to the grocery or to any type of shopping you care for, from national chains to small locally owned shops. Its a great area, but not the most affordable to buy into.
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Post by KC_JAYHAWK »

If you could somehow scrunch the River Market, Downtown, Crown Center, 39th St, Westport and the Plaza all in the same density as Denver's downtown, KC would be far and above superior. We have everything they do, it's just spread out. In that case, we need to find a way to tie all the pieces together (aka light rail) or some other method of transportation. And then we just need to fill in the gaps, clean up downtown, continue to add residents, build a new arena, PAC. :D
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Post by tat2kc »

Jayhawk, you are exactly right!!!
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Post by mean »

If you could somehow scrunch the River Market, Downtown, Crown Center, 39th St, Westport and the Plaza all in the same density as Denver's downtown, KC would be far and above superior.
Can't argue with that, but I confess that I'd be a lot happier if all the in-between space got filled in by other cool urban districts instead of having a train whisking you from cool urban district to cool urban district through miles of blighted foulness.
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Post by QueSi2Opie »

I like this new post! I was in Denver in both '99 and 2000...it's amazing because I hear that city was in the same shape as KC about a dozen years ago.
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Re: Denver, CO - June 03

Post by carfreekc »

First, great idea for a forum!
KC wrote:I really don't know how it supports that much retail when there is about 0 condos on 16th street and only about 5,000 people living in LoDo (by their own counts).
There are some condos on 16th Street, including some right by the light rail stops by 16th. Now whether or not you can afford them is another issue. The Denver Downtown Partnership site includes the following (from http://www.downtowndenver.com/housing/dt_cbd.htm ):

"the rate of residential growth in the upper end of Downtown--in what is often referred to as the central business district--has been on par with Lower Downtown. Both areas have populations of approximately 3500 people.

"In recent years, several vacant office buildings in upper end of Downtown Denver have been renovated into apartment and condominium projects--Baldwin Lofts (16th & California Street), the Denver Dry Lofts (15th & California Street), A.T. Lewis & Rio Grande Lofts (16th & Stout Street), Boston Lofts (17th & Champa Street) and Bank Lofts (17th & Stout Street). The latter three projects in this list include below market-rate apartments for Downtown's workforce. Two recent developments on Champa Street include the Buerger Brothers Industrial Lofts (1742 Champa Street) and the Chamber Apartments next door (1726 Champa Street)--again, both with below market-rate apartments for Downtown's workforce. All of the buildings mentioned above are historic structures renovated for housing--including Denver Dry Lofts, which was once Denver's grand department store. The upper end of Downtown now has approximately 1,550 rental units and 650 for-sale units."
KC wrote:Didn't get to see much else. For everything denver has done with their downtown area, what they are lacking is in attractions. In the 48 hours there, my friends who didn't join us for all the games, had to drive to a mountain town to find something to do....past 16th street and drinking in LoDo, it seems there is a lack of attractions that people w/o kids could take in....not everybody gets a kick of just walking downtown among a well kept area.
I'll work on a longer reply (I'm hungry!) later with some thoughts from my experience of living in Denver for 4 years, but first I'm curious, KC, what are you defining as "attractions" that downtown Denver (or Denver in general) didn't have? What did your friends do in the mountain town that they couldn't do in Denver? I'm thinking of the U.S. Mint, Elitch Gardens (their amusement park), the Denver Art Museum, City Park and the Natural History Museum, the Cherry Creek Trail between Cherry Creek and downtown, the Botanic Gardens, the Colorado History Museum....so I am honestly a little confused as to our different definitions of attractions.
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Post by KCPowercat »

they went up there and did those things that small towns have....antique/trift stores and casinos.....plus seeing the mountians.

Yes denver has things to do, but for instance the mint isn't open on weekends we didn't think (we might have been wrong).

For example, look at this list of KC attractions that you could get done without having to get in a car (you'd have to take a bus mind you):

-Union Station (Science City, theatres, smaller U.S. museum)
-Liberty memorial
-Hallmark Visitor's Center
-Kaliedescope
-City Market
-Plaza
-Nelson
-Kemper (both museums very well known, unlike the MOMA in denver)
-Negro League Museum
-Jazz museum
-Steamboat Arabia
-Boulvard Brewery tour

then expand to a car
-Worlds of Fun
-Oceans of Fun
-Truman Sports Complex
-Zoo
-Powell Gardens
-Casinos


It just didn't seem like there was as much...we could be wrong...everything we picked up about Denver was like, 16th Street mall, lodo, & Cherry Creek...then pretty much it would send you to the mountains to do stuff........I'm more than willing to go back and try some new things though ;)
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Post by dangerboy »

the bus list is mostly convenient by taxi as well, which people don't take enough advantage of here.

by bus:
Kansas City Museum
Brookside shops
Westport shopping/partying
Truman Library
Truman Home
Community of Christ Temple
Isle of Capri, Harrah's, and Ameristar casinos

by car:
Missouri Town 1855
Unity Village
Parkville
Weston
Smithville, Jacomo, and Blue Springs Lakes
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Post by DanCa »

I had to read through this thread since I lived in Denver for a few years.

One reason why downtown doesn't need as many people living in it to support it is because directly to the east, north and southeast are densely populated neighborhoods with no freeway to block them. I lived in the City Park area about 2 miles due east of downtown. Because it was so easy to walk to the corner and take the bus, I went downtown a lot to shop, eat or go to a movie.

As for Denver's neighborhoods, I don't think KC could beat Denver's. You've got Capitol Hill, which nothing compares to in KC. And the great old houses continue south of Capitol Hill all the way down to DU. Then you've got Five Points just north of downtown, which used to be "the ghetto" but is now pricey and fairly well-kept. The West Side has a Hispanic feel to it with a lot of cool old houses and again, fairly well kept overall.

One thing where Denver blows KC away is comparing mass blight. There is none in Denver. I have never driven through a neighborhood in Denver where the houses were all dilapitated and ready for a bulldozer as can be found in many parts of both KCK and KCMO. There is no equivilant to KCK either. Houses tend to be made of stone and brick and better-maintained than in the KC area.

One other thing I really like about Denver is that it's not as segregated as KC. You tend to find people of many races in just about any type of neighborhood with the exception of the West Side being mostly Hispanic. But it still isn't a 100% thing.
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Post by KC0KEK »

DanCa wrote:Houses tend to be made of stone and brick and better-maintained than in the KC area.
I didn't know that about the building materials. I'd always heard that the majority of homes in the Eastern half of the country are built out of masonary, while those in the Western half are predominantly wood.
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Post by DanCa »

The story I heard about Denver is that it had something to do with not having enough trees in the area that were good for building purposes. I guess all the pines in the mountains weren't good enough? I know out on the plains, where Denver is actually located, vegetation is scarce.
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