Long winded thoughts on Tulsa and OKC

Do a trip report here....go to another city and want to relate it to what KC is doing right or could do better? Give us a summary in here.
Post Reply
User avatar
rxlexi
Penntower
Penntower
Posts: 2290
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:30 pm
Location: Briarcliff

Long winded thoughts on Tulsa and OKC

Post by rxlexi »

  so I returned last week from a brief trip down to Tulsa and OKC the weekend.  It was my first trip to either city, and indeed to the state.  Spent an afternoon in Tulsa and two nights in OKC.  Here are some thoughts on the Sooner state and what turned out to be a very enjoyable little getaway:

  Tulsa - very surprised and impressed with Tulsa for its size...it has a bit of the feeling of a mini-KC, nestled as it is into the rolling green hills of NE Oklahoma, with a bit of an artsy vibe.  My girlfriend was attending a recruiting fair at Cascia Hall, a very pretty, seemingly exclusive high school off of 21st and Peoria, near Utica Square, Tulsa's well-to-do shopping district. 
 
  US was mostly filled with the standard upscale chains, but there were a few unique cafes and such that looked great.  We stopped at one for brunch, the Stone Horse Grill (IIRC) and were very impressed...great service at the bar, a bustling and sophisticated crowd, great quiche, avocado wrap and Saturday NYTimes.  The buildings and setup in US reminded me a LOT of Prairie Village, though the actual architecture was a more elegant, minimal 50's style, the basic layout and bucolic, walkable outdoor mall feel surrounded by parking was almost identical to the PV shops.  Which is a good thing.  Overall a very attractive area, and a good first impression.
 
  From US I milled around the surrounding neighborhood, which was gorgeous...hilly, green, winding roads and pretty, large homes (off of Utica).  Very Mission Hills/Fairway-ish.  In this neighborhood I found the Philbrook art museum, Tulsa's premier art space set in an old oil baron's tile-roofed mansion and surrounded by stunning, well-manicured grounds.  It is a small place but very well-executed and interesting in that it is set tightly in a fine neighborhood and has such pretty and seemingly well-used grounds.  Also a great museum store, I thought, with a number of Tulsa Art Deco books and DVDs, which I really appreciated (more on that in a second).  Next I stopped by Woodward park, another gorgeous green space that in size and function resembles Loose Park quite a bit, including the wonderful Tulsa Rose Garden, (bigger than Loose, from the looks of it), Tulsa History Center and what looked like a really cool garden center and learning gardens.  Again, the park is surrounded by beautiful homes and in the vicinity of the Philbrook and US.
 
  From here I drove straight down Peoria into downtown, noting how quickly and easily one can move from the Brookside/Mission Hills esque 'hoods in Tulsa into downtown (just a couple of minutes) and how well maintained almost all of the homes and blocks off of Peoria looked.  I found downtown to be a sad contradiction...blessed with an awesome assortment of Art Deco buildings from the 20's and 30's oil boom and a number of large, prominent towers, and the sweet, very modern new BOK arena and Tulsa City Hall, the built environment humbles other cities Tulsa's size.  There are a LOT of pretty old buildings down there and some decent new stuff.  However, there are also tons and tons of empty surface lots (was there on a Saturday), and absolutely no activity.  Again, it was a Saturday but even the surrounding areas seemed quiet...DT Tulsa is begging for some type of touristy bar/shopping/gallery district.  I checked out the surrounding Brady Village and Blue Dome districts and found some neat up and coming areas (sort of their Xroads...edgier, artsy bars and galleries and downtown nightlife) but of course wasn't able to check them out that night.  During the day only saw a handful of bars, some which looked like they could be really interesting.  Saw very little residential or development around the new arena that might help complement these areas to bring some life into would could be a very pretty downtown.  Tulsa's collection of Art Deco is to die for, and the sheer amount of the stuff lends a real charm to the city, even coming from a place blessed with great Deco and 30's architecture like KC.  Also def. looking forward to the badass Deco inspired ballpark for the AA Tulsa Drillers that Populous (still doesn't sound right) is designing for DT Tulsa (actually just outside the CBD in the old African-American part of town, Greenwood).  It's one of the cooler stadium designs I've seen lately, as it really takes Tulsa's architectural history into account...check it out with a google search if interested.
  From DT drove to the university of Tulsa...seemingly hilarious rundown area surrounds what turned out to be a very nice campus...nice, consistent light stone buildings flanking a large green quad...fantastic tennis facilities (they have a good tennis program, I hear), bike lanes, etc.  A very nice, good sized urban university campus.  Really wish UMKC had gone with a similar, consistent look to the Volker campus...even if the difference is just cosmetic it makes for a prettier and more serious campus environment IMO.  Overall impressed, despite the surrounding 'hoods. 
 
  Finally, drove back down Peoria to Tulsa's Brookside area, which is really a chunk of Peoria where the street has been narrowed with diagonal parking, wide sidewalks and such and is lined with funky bars, some very nice european furniture dealers, a few galleries (I believe) and coffeeshops, etc.  Seemed like a really cool area, if small, and I would have loved to hang out here given more time.  I thought it odd that after this cool stretch it just turned back into a giant ugly road lined with huge power lines and strip malls and the like. 
  Also would like to see the Cherry Street area...oh well saved for the next OK trip, when I stay in Tulsa.  Very pleasantly surprised with both the city and people...nice folks.  Oh and finding Troost Avenue near Cascia Hall and a near identical Sophian Plaza apartment building was a trip (SP off of the Plaza was built by the same developer, apparently, a KC doctor, and while the Plaza building is quite a bit nicer, with added columns, wrought iron, etc, the Tulsa building is still pretty and in good shape...still a good address and premier DT living...really cool).

  OKC - OKC was interesting.  Again had a good time, spent a lot of time driving around, exploring neighborhoods.  Very flat, very different feel from Tulsa...more cowtown, in something of a good way (with a cool operating stockyards area, etc.) and yet more new construction, a lot of investment downtown.  The state capitol is really oddly a good distance from the CBD in sort of a weird area. 
  Checked out the Paseo Arts District, which though tiny I really liked.  It's a block or two of small spanish looking buildings supposedly inspired by the Plaza and built as a shopping district in the late 20's early 30's that then became kind of a bohemian hangout.  It is now surrounded by decent if not exactly nice neighborhoods of cute little tan brick homes, the likes of which I saw all over OKC, and has a number of cool little galleries, curio shops, etc.  Also has a fine dining place, Paseo Grill, and a couple of bars and coffee shop.  Stopped by Galileo, an awesome, cozy pseudo-hipster bar that appeared to have good food and had a couple of Lunars while talking to the bartender.  He more or less slammed Bricktown, like some folks in KC do P&L, and recommended we check out his friend's place at Prohibition Room, a speakeasy type of bar with supposedly good food located "in an old bank with a gold dome".     

  Well, PR turned out to be one the coolest experiences I've had in a while.  Fantastic, cheap food, live jazz, good drink menu including local COOP Ale Works beer (one of the only places I could find it)...and it was indeed in an old bank with a gold dome...a massive gold dome.  PR is in a 1955 geodesic dome (!) that was built and operated as a bank for many, many years, until Walgreens wanted to buy the corner lot and demolish it.  Local preservations saved it, so we were told, and part of the interior along the sides, with outward facing windows, was turned into the bar space and a few glassed in shops across the lobby, which was left open, all original and was hosting a wedding reception the night we were there.  So we were sitting in this fairly swanky bar, looking out the floor-ceiling plate glass windows into the gold domed lobby at this wedding reception...and walking thu it to use the restrooms...while we enjoyed dinner and drinks.  An awesome, unexpected experience, and a great example of why it pays to talk to locals when traveling.

  Downtown OKC has seen a lot of investment...they're really pushing hard to move up into Tier 2 city status with KC, Denver, Stl, etc.  Very nice move nabbing the Thunder and some great new architecture and planning (the Chesapeake Boathouse and riverfront, arts district, Devon Tower) but they still have a long way to go.  Bricktown was sort of meh...nicely done, I liked the incorporation of old buildings, proximity to CBD and the well-landscaped riverwalk, but found the overall experience to be just alright, and sort of oddly suburban in parts.  Would like to go back on a busy Sat night in nice weather some time to check it out again...it is packed with bars and clubs and could certainly be fun, but not really my scene and just less appealing in general than I expected.  Ford Center and the OKC convention center were both smaller and well, less big-league than I expected...Tulsa's BOK Center blows Ford away.  Otherwise downtown was unexpectedly nice and like I mentioned seems to have seen a lot of investment...the DT botanical garden, MYriad Gardens, looked really cool and would be a perfect solution to Barney Allis Plaza. 
  Again some nice Art Deco downtown and OKC Museum of Art, right near the Music Hall and directly in the CBD, was another cool example of both old Deco stuff and modern DT investment.  They took an old theater and gutted it, building the museum onto and around it with a matching Art Deco limestone look and a rooftop terrace, while maintaing the very urban proportions of the theater (Museum Store and Cafe open to the street) and including a small arts theater in the deal that looked like it had pretty cool programming.  Another small museum but very well done and a unqique and creative architectural solution.  Loved that it was right downtown.  A quick note - we are unbelievably lucky, both here and in StL, to have the size and quality of museums that we have in MO/KS, FOR FREE.  Both OKC and Tulsa charged $8-12/person for their very, very nice but small museums, probably 1/4-1/5 the size of the Nelson/SLAM.  Not to mention Kemper and Nerman, etc.

  OKC also has been going nuts doing a lot of streetscaping and beautification DT and it really shows.  I wish KC would get on the ball with this outside of P&L.  OKC has a variety of designated DT "districts" like the Arts District, Automobile Alley (think a largely empty but potentially cool Xroads), Plaza District, Paseo Arts, etc. and has invested a lot money in signage, sidewalks, streetlights etc, even before some of the up and coming areas take off.  I really appreciated this effort. 

  Some last notes - I thought OKCU, like Tulsa, was another example of a nice looking urban campus in a marginal area.

  The restaurants and bars on Western were fun, and the Crown Heights area seemed like a cool, BKS/Waldo-esque 'hood of younger people near bars and fun stuff.  Tried the Wedge pizza and really loved it...similar to Pizza Bella but a but thicker and greasier, along with a substantial portion of Truffle Oil - delish.

  Loved the large old homes right near the state capitol on Lincoln BLVD...tons of large Hyde Park looking brick mansions a stone's throw from the capitol...some really really nice, some very run down.  Didn't really "get" this area but it was fascinating and glad I found it.

  Found a VERY Hyde Park like 'hood called Mesta Park right near downtown that had big broad green parkways...very nice, midwestern and frankly KC-like.

  OKC Memorial was very well done, moving and a neat piece of urban planning.

  TONS of cool modern (60s-70s vintage) architecture in both OK cities, including large weird towers and lots of modern homes and churches.  Bruce Goff was from OKC, of course.

  Overall, I great little trip to an interesting state, full of strange red clay dirt and native american culture and two small yet interesting cities that I look forward to visiting again...especially Tulsa, where I'd love to check out the nightlife a bit.

     
Last edited by rxlexi on Tue May 12, 2009 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
are we spinning free?
User avatar
DaveKCMO
Ambassador
Posts: 20042
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Long winded thoughts on Tulsa and OKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

i believe OKC has done a much better job engaging the citizenry in making improvements. i can't remember what the program is called, but it's citywide and in phases... gives people a narrative to follow instead of just doing seemingly patchwork improvements (think "city beautiful" or "10 year plan" for the 00's).
User avatar
KCMax
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 24051
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:31 pm
Location: The basement of a Ross Dress for Less
Contact:

Re: Long winded thoughts on Tulsa and OKC

Post by KCMax »

For whatever reason, I had kind of a negative attitude towards OKC and Tulsa, even though I have never visited. Your post has changed my mind on a lot of that. I think it goes to show you can have a fun time in any good sized city depending on your attitude. Interesting to gain the perspective of what other comparable cities have done with their CBD and urban districts. Great post! Did you take pics?
SAVE THE PLAZA - FROM ZOMBIES! Find out how at:

http://twitter.com/TheKCRag
User avatar
chrizow
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 17157
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:43 am

Re: Long winded thoughts on Tulsa and OKC

Post by chrizow »

i'd like to take a look at both tulsa and okc, though admittedly neither one is high on my list.  i've heard good things about tulsa - i.e. that it's a lot like kansas city.  i've been told that okc is the "new kansas city" in the diy/anarchist/commune type scene, whatever that's worth (probably not much).  i know that tulsa has a DIY venue where experimental musicians and artists perform, not unlike places like the Pistol, the Emerald, etc. in KC.  i've always thought of OKC as a hot, flat, dusty, texas-style city - like a big Lubbock or Waco or something.
User avatar
GRID
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 17083
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Long winded thoughts on Tulsa and OKC

Post by GRID »

KCMax wrote: For whatever reason, I had kind of a negative attitude towards OKC and Tulsa, even though I have never visited. Your post has changed my mind on a lot of that. I think it goes to show you can have a fun time in any good sized city depending on your attitude. Interesting to gain the perspective of what other comparable cities have done with their CBD and urban districts. Great post! Did you take pics?
Tulsa and OKC are what they are.  Smaller, Midwestern metros.  OKC makes KC's sprawl and low densities look like Boston.

Tulsa is much better than OKC, but it seems quite small and extremely limited when it comes to "big-city" culture.

I like Tulsa, it's just a bit small.  OKC bothers me.  I just don't like that place at all.  I have tried many times to like it, but I just have not found anything to really like about it.
User avatar
Roanoker
Penntower
Penntower
Posts: 2199
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:16 pm
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: Long winded thoughts on Tulsa and OKC

Post by Roanoker »

Some years ago, I went to Oklahoma City for a business reason that I cannot recall now. The meeting planners included a visit to what I remember as the Cowboy Museum, which included a banquet. The place was big and beautiful. All the artwork was magnificent, ranging from paintings, photos, and sculptures of all sizes. I searched for it on the Internet and found http://www.nationalcowboymuseum.org/default.aspx. I guess it is still there.
“Give up money, give up fame, give up science, give the earth itself and all it contains rather than do an immoral act.” —Thomas Jefferson (1785)
User avatar
rxlexi
Penntower
Penntower
Posts: 2290
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:30 pm
Location: Briarcliff

Re: Long winded thoughts on Tulsa and OKC

Post by rxlexi »

KCMax, I didn't take any pics, though I would have loved to (didn't have a camera).  I certainly enjoyed both cities, but it is worth noting that as Grid mentioned, they are much smaller cities than KC, Tulsa especially.  I felt like I was able to see most of the "urban" core within the afternoon by just driving around  between major points of interest. 

  As far as OKC sprawling everywhere, I never really got too far out of the central core (and out into the region) to get a feeling for what the area as a whole looks like.  My girlfriend had another event at Heritage Hall, a private school out off of 122nd St, which though quite a ways from downtown had many older (60's-70's) homes.  So it appeared that it been heavily suburbanized for a long time, and the condition of many of the inner 'hoods would probably agree...not ghetto by any stretch but a little dingy.   

  Incidentally, the new high school buildings were designed by Rand Elliot, an awesome OKC architect that has won numerous AIA awards (including for those buildings, which he won this year in KCMO) and the facilities were really quite cool, so even that area was something of a plus to see.  I tend to enjoy any city I'm in, just because I love exploring urban environments and eating, drinking and culture, so if one was to go into either city expecting to be blown away I would say it's certainly not going to happen.  Tulsa was really surprising though, if small.  Very livable.

  My favorite part about OKC, however, and the reason I give it props is the attitude that the city has taken on recently, that they (as a region) will become a prosperous and desirable Tier 2 city.  They went out and brought a pro team in, they've developed and begun to implement some grand plans, they have aggressively pursued the Big 12 Tourney, and local corporate leaders are stepping to the plate with construction and expansion plans.  I love that can-do attitude, and my goodness if a place like OKC can move forward with such confidence, than why can't KC?!

 
are we spinning free?
User avatar
GRID
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 17083
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Long winded thoughts on Tulsa and OKC

Post by GRID »

rxlexi wrote:   My favorite part about OKC, however, and the reason I give it props is the attitude that the city has taken on recently, that they (as a region) will become a prosperous and desirable Tier 2 city.  They went out and brought a pro team in, they've developed and begun to implement some grand plans, they have aggressively pursued the Big 12 Tourney, and local corporate leaders are stepping to the plate with construction and expansion plans.  I love that can-do attitude, and my goodness if a place like OKC can move forward with such confidence, than why can't KC?!
I do agree with that.  OKC seems to have that community and corporate pride that KC continues to really lack compared to most towns.  Companies based there want the city to grow and go to the next level.  KC's companies seem just fine with the status quo for the most part.  Most just hang out in JoCo and act like KCMO is 500 miles away.  Getting a local company to build a true signature structure downtown is like pulling teeth in KC, and I'm not talking about 60 story towers.  We have to practically build it for them (like Block), and even then it's very rare.

Even with OKC's very low density, they will have LRT before KC.  So will Tulsa.
User avatar
DaveKCMO
Ambassador
Posts: 20042
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Long winded thoughts on Tulsa and OKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

GRID wrote:Even with OKC's very low density, they will have LRT before KC.  So will Tulsa.
oh, i completely disagree. they will both have commuter rail (both cities are actively discussing it now) before KC has anything. tulsa has some density similar to KC, but OKC would fail at everything except a privately-financed downtown streetcar circulator (which is possible, but not likely). again, cities that don't even have sunday bus service (neither do) are unlikely to make a leap to urban rail anytime soon.
Spartan65
Western Auto Lofts
Western Auto Lofts
Posts: 649
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:38 am
Location: Norman, Okla

Re: Long winded thoughts on Tulsa and OKC

Post by Spartan65 »

As a native Oklahoman that is back from Calgary for the Summer, I enjoyed reading about your experience and I'm really glad you truly discovered OKC and Tulsa.

To me, my impressions of Oklahoma's urban areas are they they're both very cool. Oklahoma isn't known for being an urban state, and it really isn't, so the urban communities in OKC and Tulsa have sort of an alternative lifestyle feel to them that is very interesting. Urban being the alternative lifestyle..although there are significant gay communities that are a component of that as well, that's not what I mean by alternative.

Another thing I want to point out is that we don't really consider ourselves Midwestern. Some consider us Southeastern, and some consider ourselves Southwestern..but usually one of those two. So I keep hearing you all call OKC a "smaller Midwestern metro" like it's some sort of Wichita or Des Moines. (Which by the way, OKC has 1.3 million, and Tulsa has 950,000..which is way bigger than "smaller Midwestern metros.")

OKC is very gritty. People don't realize that. The reason Bricktown doesn't feel like OKC in a lot of places is because they've tried to take the grit out of it. If you to the north side of Bricktown however it's still very gritty, and cool. OKC is also a lot bigger than people realize, because it's been sprawling ever since it was settled on a single day. The old inner city has some really cool areas, as well as some really posh areas, some downright hideous slums, and some areas that are turning the corner. It's a big city that has a lot of potential that it's just now starting to realize.

Tulsa is much more refined and much more upscale than OKC. There's a lot more art in Tulsa, and the Philbrook sort of serves as a community center for the Midtown area..and ground zero for tourists that come through Tulsa.It's a city that has until recently dominated everything in Oklahoma except government. The rise of OKC has been a big problem for Tulsa, especially psychologically, because it's made them keenly realize just how bad their downtown is. I've only seen DT Tulsa on week days when it was extremely busy and had lots of pedestrian activity, but I've heard really awful stories of hobos sleeping in the middle of Boston Avenue at night.
DaveKCMO wrote: oh, i completely disagree. they will both have commuter rail (both cities are actively discussing it now) before KC has anything. tulsa has some density similar to KC, but OKC would fail at everything except a privately-financed downtown streetcar circulator (which is possible, but not likely). again, cities that don't even have sunday bus service (neither do) are unlikely to make a leap to urban rail anytime soon.
Really now Dave? That's funny because today OKC officially announced its new downtown streetcar proposal. I started a thread on it for KC people here:
http://forum.kcrag.com/index.php?topic=15893.0
Last edited by Spartan65 on Wed May 13, 2009 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I just love the smell of skyscrapers in the morning...
http://okmet.org / OkMet forums
Keep Tulsa Lame.
User avatar
DaveKCMO
Ambassador
Posts: 20042
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: Long winded thoughts on Tulsa and OKC

Post by DaveKCMO »

again, with a 10-year timeline after a public vote, commuter rail will likely come first to either city. sorry...
Post Reply