Dallas/Fort Worth

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:51 pm

DALLAS

I've been to Dallas before, but did not explore the city to the extent as I did these past 4 days.

While Dallas has nothin' like the Country Club Plaza, KC cannot think about comparing itself to the Big "D" in terms of shopping and dining options. That city has upscale shopping everywhere and the dining options are tremendous. After exploring Dallas, there's so many more department stores and restaurants that Kansas City could be scouting and tryin' to bring to this city.

There are mid-rise/high-rise buildings everywhere for miles along I-35E, I-635 and Highway 75 in the Dallas metro. Nightlife options in or near the downtown area focus around the West End District, the Deep Ellum District and the McKinney Avenue District...not to mention nightlife in Arlington and Fort Worth.

FORT WORTH

For starters, Kansas City could look towards downtown Fort Worth for a model of revitalization. Sun Dance Square in downtown Fort Worth is made up of mostly historical 1930s deco-buildings decorated with street level neon signs housing restaurants, clubs, shops and galleries, the trees along the downtown streets in Sun Dance Square are lite up with white X-mas lights, street performers are entertaining the crowded streets made up of visitors and residents alike. There isn't any giant retail or restaurant names that draw people to downtown either. You have restaurants like Chili's, Mi Cocina, Jambo Juice and so on with bars/clubs like The Flying Saucer, City Streets and other clubs with rooftop patios and decks. There is also shopping like Barnes & Noble and an AMC Theater. AMC THEATER WON'T EVEN BUILD IN DOWNTOWN KC!!!! The main thing I noticed was that there was life downtown, the streets were full of people, and all this without a HRC, House of Blues, Virgin Records, ESPN Zone, an Arena, etc.

KANSAS CITY

Downtown KC needs to start small and the big names will follow on their own, especially the ones that have been wanting to tap the KC market. There also needs to be organization in development. Two nightclubs on Grand and three bars on Broadway won't cut it.

Start with what we have and connect the Convention Center at 13th Street with Broadway and Central down to 8th Street. You already have the Folly & Lyric Theaters and Quality Hill Playhouse in those blocks, not to mention the Pheonix, Majestic Steakhouse, Tanner's and the Quaff, with hotels such as Holiday Inn, Marriott, Double Tree, etc. The only thing KC would need to do is make the area much more pedestrian friendly with trees, lights and wider sidewalks, make parking easier and bring in a few more restaurants, shops and clubs to fill in the gaps. Much of the parking is already there, you jus' need to hire peeps in yellow shirts and orange flags to direct the traffic to the open spaces.

This is my point, fill in what we got and forget about building another fake 18th & Vine between Main and Grand. Leave that area for an Arena, H&R Block, etc. I'd much rather see a natural entertainment district along the streets and in our historic buildings.

Also, what's that bar/club on Central, south of the Pheonix with the live rooftop entertainment?

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 6:29 pm

I agree, with everything you said, except that I don't see the "natural" part of Dallas that you do. US-75, north Dallas etc is a very dense, built up area, but it's still very suburban in nature.

But you make good points.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 6:39 pm

GRID wrote:I agree, with everything you said, except that I don't see the "natural" part of Dallas that you do. US-75, north Dallas etc is a very dense, built up area, but it's still very suburban in nature.

But you make good points.

No, no... I said I'd like to see a natural entertainment district evolve in KC such as Sun Dance Square in Fort Worth. Not a plastic entertainment district like the one in Arlington.

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 9:31 pm

But Sun Dance is manufactured. It's not like Crossroads or even Westport. Isn't AMC the main anchor there?

KC needs a "manufactured" district, probably more than anything else, if not for any other reason other than to at least give visitors and suburbanites the perception that the city is alive and well.

We just need to do it right and right the first time. I really do hope that the reason the arena district is taking so long is due to getting a full blown package together and financed before ever even showing it to the public. Then build the arena, the entertainment disctrict and hopefully a couple of office buildings before the public ever gets a chance to shoot it down.

The Plaza is stale and our upscale suburban districts suck bad (town center etc). KC has plenty of room for new and fresh stores and resturaunts be it local, chain, in a new building or in a clasic reno. KC needs it all right now. I won't disagree with that.

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 9:35 pm

Thing is, KC still has so much building stock and entire city blocks empty everything that could be what you are talking about. Something Dallas does not have. Someday this city will capitalize on that.

BTW, I like N Dallas. Just something about that area I like, not sure what. Plano sucks, JoCo on steriods, and Fort Worth is too countryfied for me.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 10:27 pm

GRID wrote:Fort Worth is too countryfied for me.

I thought the same thing when I was there at 9:30am on a Saturday, then went to the Ft. Worth Zoo (very nice) and then Six Flags (kinda disappointing) before goin' back to Sun Dance Square in the evening. It was packed, everyone dressed nicely, art galleries like Milan and Hometown were full, lines outside restaurants such as Mi Cocina, 8.0, Razzoo's, etc. with the rooftop bars and clubs bumpin'. There were live performers on the streets and one could barely notice the AMC and Barnes & Noble in the background near the Bass Performance Hall. If I woke up in Sundance Square, I wouldn't think it was a hicktown. The art-deco on the older buildings is pleasant to look at as well.

Has anyone ever been to a Flying Saucer? I love that place! I've been to the one in downtown Little Rock before, and now Fort Worth. I wish we had one in KC.

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 10:34 pm

Did you go to the Stockyards? That area is kinda cool too.

When you travel, you have to wonder what's up with KC and why are we so far behind? At least I do.

Post by **mean** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 11:07 pm

That has to be at least partly because most people don't travel to the cities that are in similar or worse shape.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 11:54 pm

GRID wrote:Did you go to the Stockyards? That area is kinda cool too.

Nope, didn't have time for everything. Spent most my time in Dallas.

GRID wrote:When you travel, you have to wonder what's up with KC and why are we so far behind? At least I do.

Like the way that OKC's scout boards have been up and running for a while.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:02 am

mean wrote:That has to be at least partly because most people don't travel to the cities that are in similar or worse shape.

I hear people get excited about goin' to St. Louis for the weekend as if it were f$%kin' Disneyland! People usually travel to NYC, LA, Chicago, Orlando, Bahamas, Cancun, Europe, etc for vacation....so they expect those places to be different, more lively, touristy, and so on.

What people need to do is travel to downtown Omaha, downtown OKC, downtown Denver, downtown Indianapolis and say,"Hey, this really isn't a touristy city, yet they have a lively downtown with restuarants, nightspots, attractions, shopping, etc."

I think peeps in KC think that this city should be a 9-5 town in the core and don't see why they should try and change all that. If they only knew that smaller cities had livelier downtowns than we do, they might stand up and attempt to make a difference.

GuyInLenexa · Post by **GuyInLenexa** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:36 am

Fort Worth is indeed a place that Kansas City should look to as far as an entertainment district. FW is my home, I was born and raised there, the downtown did not just pop back to life from Sundance Square. SD started in the 80’s from a few blocks of renovated buildings near the beautiful Tarrant County courthouse (designed by a Kansas City architect in the late 1800’s)
FW has been making fervent efforts to revitalize downtown since the 60’s. Leaders such as Charles Tandy and the Bass family have been instrumental.
Sundance is not the only exciting areas to see in FW’s downtown, there is a new farmers market, a new inter-model transportation center, the redevelopment of Lancaster Avenue (a former wide thoroughfare that was covered by an overhead freeway since the 50’s) which is being developed into a grand boulevard bridging the central district to the cultural district.
The river front is being worked on with the new campus of Radio Shack’s and Pier One’s new headquarters.
All this is done in a city comparable to KCMO’s size, without a f_cking city income tax. And there are no metal plates covering the axle deep potholes either.

A good site of FW: www.fortwortharchitecture.com

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:50 pm

Visited Forth Worth for a few days and here are my observations...

Downtown
Downtown Fort Worth is something of Downtown meets Westport. The nightlife crowds are comparable to what you'd see at the Plaza or in Westport, but located in the central business district. At night it transforms into a lively entertainment district with crowds similar to Westport or the Plaza. Part of what makes it so appealing is the streetscape and the way the businesses blend in. Everything is lit up, there are people all over the streets hopping from bar to bar...very electric type atmosphere although nothing in particular is interesting to me, but as a district it succeeds gloriously as being a nightlife destination. This can and will happen with the Cordish development in KC.

Although the area buzzes at night, there are HUGE surface lots and ugly garages everywhere. KC's core of buildings is infinitely better than what Forth Worth is working with. Something about downtown FW seems very manufactured and "un" urban. But because the Sundance Square area works in FW, I'm convinced it will be a smashing success in KC. I'm obviously partial to KC, and FW's downtown was very lively, but it still seemed so small in comparison to what I know of KC. Another downside is there is little residential construction going on downtown. I saw a few apartments going up on the outskirts and the building that got slaughtered by the tornado is now residential, but it didn't seem like there was much construction going on. I know that Pier 1 and Radio Shack just built HQ.

Stockyards
A tourist trap, but a lively one. Lots of restaurants and souvenir shops crammed into the old stockyards. Lots of hokey architecture for boot shops and honky tonks feeds into stereotypical Texas models. However, I was blown away by how popular this area is. I've heard very few locals frequent this place, but the area is packed with foot traffic comparable to the Plaza. The literal stockyards are turned into a mall type area that houses shops and restaurants (TX BBQ Yuck!) in a neat way.

Cultural District
Every cultural amentity in FW is crammed into this area (Zoo, Kimbell, the Modern, Will Rogers, Omnimax, Natural History and Science, Botanical). It is very effective in proving to be a one stop shop for what you need from Forth Worth, but it is beyond me why they would put all their cultural institutions in a semi-suburban area surrounded by vast parking lagoons instead of downtown. That's Texas for you. Neverless, it is a somewhat impressive statement of attractions for the city and the region. KC could learn a lot by better clumping together institutions (KC Zoo, hello?).

Suburbia
Everyone's favorite thing to love to hate. TX suburbia is indeed Johnson County on 'roids. Fort Worth, Dallas' scrappy little brother, has suburban areas that make 119th and Metcalf look like Union Hill. Particularly around Northeast Mall and Hulen Mall there are suburban districts that include literally every chain you can think of crammed into a small area next to the interstate. As we're driving it's like a who's who of every chain there is (World Market, B&N, Bed Bath & Beyond) and every chain you haven't heard of (Pier 1 Kids, Rack Room Shoes, Central Market)I have never seen that much big box, SUVs, and fake exteriors on chain restaurants in my life. It is indeed nauseating after a while and should include some sort of warning. The newness and constant reinvention of the suburban retail in Texas really make a lot of what KC has look like it's from the 50s.

I was pretty impressed by the number of very nice houses in and around FW. It seemed pretty diverse in that richer neighborhoods weren't too far from poorer ones. It was my first encounter with gated driveways (do we have these?). They are ugly as hell and useless, but I guess Texans worry 'bout somebody stealin' all their stuff.

Conclusions...
Suburban FW truly does make our suburban areas seem quite urban as I noticed most of the 'burbs didn't have sidewalks-- anywhere. There would be major roads with no sidewalks. Most of the cultural district had no crosswalks and no way to get across the street from attractions. I truly felt like the idea of someone walking from place is Martian to most Texans. Other than in downtown and the stockyards, there was little sign of pedestrian life anywhere, but heavy traffic. The Texas ethos seems to be big roads, with big cars driving to big houses and big malls.

I could live downtown or somewhere in an urban part of FW, but our urban core blows away theirs while I'd say their 'burbs blow away ours. Outside of the shiny entertainment district downtown, FW is kinda depressing with a lot of 70s and 60s architecture filling up behind it. I also noticed a lot of vacant lots just sitting everywhere. There'd be a fully developed area with an old suburban office tower and strip mall and then just a dirty, old, vacant lot. Or there'd be a huge, new, apartament going up next door to an old vacant lot and a bunch of ranch houses that look like they're ready to fall down. Very weird place...

Tosspot · Post by **Tosspot** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:10 pm

TK, thanks for that poignant summary. I had been wondering where you ran off to.

There are at least one or two large houses around 53rd & Belleview in KCMO that have gates, but those are actually done in a regal and classy manner. And there is, of course, that stupid gated "community" in JoCo, Leawood I believe. It's just across from a lot of high-class strip mall gulags.

Didn't make it to Dallas huh? I would love to hear a KCMO comparison on that one...

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:14 pm

Tosspot wrote:TK, thanks for that poignant summary. I had been wondering where you ran off to.

There are at least one or two large houses around 53rd & Belleview in KCMO that have gates, but those are actually done in a regal and classy manner. And there is, of course, that stupid gated "community" in JoCo, Leawood I believe. It's just across from a lot of high-class strip mall gulags.

Didn't make it to Dallas huh? I would love to hear a KCMO comparison on that one...

I'm talking about normal KC suburban houses (ranch styles probably in the $200s+) that have big metal gates on the driveway. I'd never seen such a thing other than estates or gated communities.

I wanted to get to Dallas, but FW took up all my time. I may or may not return. From what I've heard, Dallas is a much more trendy type city...maybe like Phoenix meets LA meets Texas?

Tosspot · Post by **Tosspot** » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:17 pm

trailerkid wrote: I'm talking about normal KC suburban houses (ranch styles probably in the $200s+) that have big metal gates on the driveway. I'd never seen such a thing other than estates or gated communities.

Well I have come across some people who virulently hate Texas and the "culture" therein. This sounds like one of their reasons, and a good one at that.

Thrillcekr · Post by **Thrillcekr** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:46 am

I used to go to the Dallas/Fort Worth area once a month back in the mid 90's and I definitely noticed that things were happening even back then. I visited the stockyards and I thought it was countrified as hell at first glance.

My friend talked me into going into Billy Bobs which was the largest night club in the US at that time. I figured for sure that I'd be spending hours painfully enduring line dancing and "Achey Breakey Heart". I was pleasantly surprised that they mixed it up quite a bit. There was a lot of good dance music being mixed in with country. Watching the bull riding inside that mini arena was pretty entertaining as well. I walked out of that place with a different attitude. If all "country bars" were as cool as that one then I probably wouldn't mind it if they put one near the urban core somewhere. Especiall if there were as many good looking women as their was in Billy Bob's. I had a good time.

My overall impression of Fort Worth is pretty much the same as that of the others on this thread. As far as architectural character, KC definitely wins. When it comes to activity and entertainment within the urban core, Kansas City can't even come close to competing with FW. They are in a totally different league. Hopefully that will change someday but that would take a great deal of time. We have a lot of catching up to do. I think we can. Ft. Worth will never be able to snatch the Cowboys or Rangers stadiums and move them to their downtown. They won't ever be able to grab the Mavericks from Dallas either and we have a new arena coming.

I believe we need a healthy combination of new developments like P&L with big name tenants and centralization of some of the old kansas city icons. It would be great to have Nike and ESPN but we need to have things like Arthur Bryant's, Stanford and Sons, Antonios Pizza, Strouds, Grand Emporium, LC's Hamburgers and such located in downtown as well. Big names like Virgin will put us on that list of cities that have "made it" while things like great food served by restaraunts that can only be found in KC will ensure that we are distinguishable and not "Any Downtown USA".

If you want to make downtown KC a place that people will want to return to you have to offer things that can't be found in any other downtown. We have a lot of great local food and entertainment in KC but it is just all scattered out. I still think the city should create some sort of an "A" list of these locally well known businesses and try to work something out that would convince them to open up a location downtown.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:47 pm

Thrillcekr wrote:When it comes to activity and entertainment within the urban core, Kansas City can't even come close to competing with FW. They are in a totally different league. Hopefully that will change someday but that would take a great deal of time. We have a lot of catching up to do. I think we can.

I'd disagree with this to a point. Downtown Fort Worth is probably not as busy as the Plaza at night, but it is comparable. The Plaza's restaurants and entertainment venues are spread out so it's hard to measure. Regardless, Fort Worth definitely felt alive downtown up until all the people spilled out of the bars.

One of the differences I also noticed is that the stuff Fort Worth had wasn't necessarily any cooler or better than a lot of KC's stuff (in most cases we have better bars, clubs, and restaurants). But in Fort Worth there were people everywhere on the weekends. I get more of an impression that more people from Fort Worth generally go into the city for excitement, dining, etc. while a lot of Kansas Citians stay in the 'burbs at night. The Stockyards of Fort Worth are no better than the West Bottoms of KC in appearance, but the Stockyards of Fort Worth are always busy while people stay away from the West Bottoms like the plague. No businesses come to the West Bottoms, but the Stockyards have tons of retail, bars, restaurants and a museum. I don't really get it. Areas like Union Hill, 39th Street and 18th and Vine would be huge attractions in Fort Worth, but here they're just little neighborhood centers.

Thrillcekr · Post by **Thrillcekr** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:34 pm

Billy Bob's alone has a capacity of 7,000 people and it's always packed. That one bar alone holds more people than you will see around the Plaza most times of year accept the holidays. That isn't even mentioning the rest of the Stockyards.

That's due a lot to the fact that the Dallas/Ft.Worth metro has a large enough population to make KC seem like Fort Scott. The size of the local population size alone makes it impossible for KC to match their nightlife at this time. The key will be making it enough of a destination with new attractions to draw people from cities throughout the midwest. If Fort Worth were out there all by itself it would be a different story but they have tons of people from Dallas who go to the Stockyards also. Additionally, there are a hell of a lot more tourists and business travellers there. It's a much more popular destination.

It isn't like they come there for the natural wonders though so we can work on that. Kansas City is much prettier from a natural beauty perspective than almost any place in Texas except maybe Corpus Christi.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:31 pm

Thrillcekr wrote:Billy Bob's alone has a capacity of 7,000 people and it's always packed. That one bar alone holds more people than you will see around the Plaza most times of year accept the holidays. That isn't even mentioning the rest of the Stockyards.

That's due a lot to the fact that the Dallas/Ft.Worth metro has a large enough population to make KC seem like Fort Scott. The size of the local population size alone makes it impossible for KC to match their nightlife at this time. The key will be making it enough of a destination with new attractions to draw people from cities throughout the midwest. If Fort Worth were out there all by itself it would be a different story but they have tons of people from Dallas who go to the Stockyards also. Additionally, there are a hell of a lot more tourists and business travellers there. It's a much more popular destination.

It isn't like they come there for the natural wonders though so we can work on that. Kansas City is much prettier from a natural beauty perspective than almost any place in Texas except maybe Corpus Christi.

My friend from SW Fort Worth had hardly ever even been to Dallas. Although it's one metroplex, there's not a whole lot of reason for someone to go to Dallas other than work or a specific destination. FW and Dallas seemed very separate. They both have their own zoos, their own art musuems, their own high end suburbs, their own big shopping areas. I wouldn't say it's even comparable to KCMO and Johnson County. It's more like KCMO and Topeka or Lawrence.

How many times are there 7,000 people at Billy Bob's? There was nothing going on there when I was there and the Stockyards were still packed. The Plaza is probably 3-4 times the size of the Stockyards.

Thrillcekr · Post by **Thrillcekr** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:29 pm

trailerkid wrote:
Thrillcekr wrote:Billy Bob's alone has a capacity of 7,000 people and it's always packed. That one bar alone holds more people than you will see around the Plaza most times of year accept the holidays. That isn't even mentioning the rest of the Stockyards.

That's due a lot to the fact that the Dallas/Ft.Worth metro has a large enough population to make KC seem like Fort Scott. The size of the local population size alone makes it impossible for KC to match their nightlife at this time. The key will be making it enough of a destination with new attractions to draw people from cities throughout the midwest. If Fort Worth were out there all by itself it would be a different story but they have tons of people from Dallas who go to the Stockyards also. Additionally, there are a hell of a lot more tourists and business travellers there. It's a much more popular destination.

It isn't like they come there for the natural wonders though so we can work on that. Kansas City is much prettier from a natural beauty perspective than almost any place in Texas except maybe Corpus Christi.
My friend from SW Fort Worth had hardly ever even been to Dallas. Although it's one metroplex, there's not a whole lot of reason for someone to go to Dallas other than work or a specific destination. FW and Dallas seemed very separate. They both have their own zoos, their own art musuems, their own high end suburbs, their own big shopping areas. I wouldn't say it's even comparable to KCMO and Johnson County. It's more like KCMO and Topeka or Lawrence.

How many times are there 7,000 people at Billy Bob's? There was nothing going on there when I was there and the Stockyards were still packed. The Plaza is probably 3-4 times the size of the Stockyards.

You're friend must be a rarity because as I told you before I used to have to travel there once a month and I always met tons of people from Dallas there.

Like I said about Billy Bob's, it's usually packed to the gills. It's one of the most popular places in Fort Worth and people from all over the country. There are major acts playing there all the time. There is constantly something going on. Travis Tritt was playing in there the first time I went in. You probably don't listen to country and neither do I but I've sure as hell heard of him. He was very big at that time and for all I know he still is. Bands like that pass through there all the time. Clubs that are empty don't draw big name acts into them. Go to their website and you will see that there are 10 concerts of well known acts scheduled for the month of April alone. That equals out to every third day. No place in KC has that kind of action going on. NONE! That doesn't include just the regular bands and events that are happening there constantly.

There may not always be exactly 7,000 people but it's pretty damn close to that almost all of the time. I can guarantee you that. I'm not buying that story about it being dead because I've very seldom seen the Hurricane dead and it's a tiny place that most outside of KC have never even heard of.

The Plaza is slightly larger than the Stockyards but 3-4 times is an extremely gross exaggeration. You obviously didn't see the whole thing. Dallas and Ft. Worth are seperate indeed. Just like the Kansas burbs have their own museums and retail yet I still see a shit load of Kansas license plates parked outside of ZR and other retail areas of the northland on any given day of the week.