14th and Grand Arena

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 1:21 am

I'm all for building a new arena, but not if the arena means cutting up established streets within the loop. Cutting off cars and pedestrians from linear movement literally drives them away. If you're on one side of the arena, are you going to walk or drive all the way around it to find out what's on the other side? If it's a through street...you just stroll down the sidewalk without obstacle. Let's put things that actually fit into the spots we're trying to fill.

Although the arena would encourage making the loop our tourist hub, it just doesn't seem to be the best fit. I would prefer an arena somehow attached to Crown Center and the citylink (or skyway). Build a pedestrian-friendly tourism district around the arena that stradles a newly funkified and artsy crossroads neighborhood which borders KC's height of urban living (the loop) complete with a new bar district, an urban Ikea, Target, and B&N, and loads of restaurants and apartments, which then leads to the river market .

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 7:54 am

I think you kill Crossroads District if you try to put in a tourism district right next to it.....it would kill the organic growth of the area in my opinion.

Here's a solution, put part of the arena OVER the interstate....hence no breakup of streets and great reuse....

I'm not sure how large a footprint a 19k seat arena takes.....is it bigger than a city block? Probably.....if so I'm sure there would be ways to make the streets still flow properly.

KCgridlock · Post by **KCgridlock** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:53 am

KC wrote:I think you kill Crossroads District if you try to put in a tourism district right next to it.....it would kill the organic growth of the area in my opinion.

Here's a solution, put part of the arena OVER the interstate....hence no breakup of streets and great reuse....

I'm not sure how large a footprint a 19k seat arena takes.....is it bigger than a city block? Probably.....if so I'm sure there would be ways to make the streets still flow properly.

I don't think so. First off, it would be nearly impossible to do. The only even remotley possible place would be too close to the convention center leaving no room for an entertainment district. Basically creating a dead space of large scale venues, it would hurt downtown street activity. Putting it over the interstate just south of 14th & Grand will not work with Truman Road etc crossing there or it would cast a bazion bucks to deal with the roads and the arena would be removed from the street too much as well. Plus I think that area of the interstate needs to be capped with a lower profile park or we will end up building a giant wall down the freeway. We have to be careful.

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:21 am

So you're just saying no to over the interstate, not the 14th & Grand location, right?

KCgridlock · Post by **KCgridlock** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:40 am

KC wrote:So you're just saying no to over the interstate, not the 14th & Grand location, right?

Right, I think the 14th and Grand location is perfect.

KCgridlock · Post by **KCgridlock** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:44 am

But, I'm not mr perfect, just my opinion. Anybody's comments are welcome. The idea of Washington Park is also a good idea, my only issue with that area is the possibility of destroying the freighthouse district to accommodate that traffic it would generate.

The south side of the downtown loop would work great and US 71 would be a very popular route of choice for arena or stadium traffic.

But lets come up with ideas and figure out ways to make them work, this is fun.

tat2kc · Post by **tat2kc** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 2:12 pm

I like the 14th and grand site. I would love to keep the crossroads area kept small scale, with lofts, small local businesses, galleries, neighborhood grocers, etc. I think it would be ideal to keep the big retaliers and national folks in the loop, keep moving the crossroads district a small, organically grown walkable neighborhood with artists in residence, affordable housing and funky small stores. I am thinking of downtown Lawrence, Cedar Springs in Dallas, that type of thing. I would vote against anything large scale between the south side of the loop and crown center.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 4:12 pm

O.K.....my intention was NEVER to put an arena in the crossroads. My idea is to put an arena in the Crown Center area and build a tourist district around it. This tourist district would border the crossroads district--not take it over. The tourism district would lead visitors through the more locally focused Crossroads and then the loop and then the river market. The basic idea is to have four distinct districts connected to each other going south to north.
-Crown Center, new arena and tourism district, Union Station
- Crossroads (funky locale, more arty than the loop)
- Loop (sleek, urban neighborhood cafes, highrises)
- River Market (neighborhood mix of market, offices, and cafes)

The idea is to enhance these 4 neighborhoods and unite them as one walkable space. A tourist could start at their hotel room at the Westin and walk all the way down to the Market seeing four great KC neighborhoods. To me, this is what an urban city is all about. The core of the city should be walkable, enhanced through mass transit, and have various different identities among one large district.

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 4:19 pm

I see, yeah it could fit right north of Crown Center and yet south of crossroads.

only problem I see with that is current infrastructure to handle 20k more people leaving an event. I 'm sure Hallmark, Crown Center, & Union Station would love that idea.

My #1 choice is still 14th & Grand but if they put an arena across the street from Union Station I won't have a aproblem with it.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 4:27 pm

only problem I see with that is current infrastructure to handle 20k more people leaving an event.

In a perfect world there's two words....

Mass Transit

Building everything with freeways surrounding it makes a city more suburban than anything.

Post by **dangerboy** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 4:48 pm

A big reason for putting it at 14th and Grand is so that it will be near Bartle Hall, since the convention industry will a big constituent of the arena. Many conventions want an on-site arena for assemblies and such. One of the reasons that the FFA left was that Kemper wasn't attached or within walking distance of Bartle (in addition to it being too small).

Even with BRT or light rail, it would still be hard to quickly move 20,000 convention goers to an arena at Crown Center. And for other events, the reality is that most people will still be arriving by cars.

Something straddling the loop would be cool, especially if the city ever pushes MoDOT to cap the rest of it for a park.

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 4:59 pm

yeah I forgot about that....yes needs to be close enough to Bartle to make it more useful.....

I will take a baseball stadium in that location though.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:13 pm

Does anyone know of any arenas/stadiums in the United States where the roadways pass under them? I cannot think of any at this moment, but that doesn't mean they don't exist in this country. In Europe, they have several soccer stadiums where the roadways run underneath the stadium so there are no complicated traffic delays. I'll jus' be happy if they build an arena downtown and won't complain. The problem is that people complain and worry so much that the projects don't end up happening at all.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:27 pm

Why should we re-build our downtown around the convention industry? Rebuilding Kansas City into a world-class city should be our number 1 concern. Think BIG!!! Let's rebuild this city on a Paris or New York level...not a Denver or Twin Cities level. New York doesn't worry about attaching convention space to arenas, etc.....It's New York City, it doesn't matter!!! Once we rebuild our innner core to become one of America's great cities, there will be a waiting list for convention space (and the FFA will be at the bottom of the list).

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:08 pm

trailerkid wrote:Why should we re-build our downtown around the convention industry? Rebuilding Kansas City into a world-class city should be our number 1 concern. Think BIG!!! Let's rebuild this city on a Paris or New York level...not a Denver or Twin Cities level.

Exactly! Kansas City needs to start thinkin' 20 years ahead (NYC) instead of 10 years behind (Denver). If we are tryin' to be like other cities in Middle-America in 2008, we'll still be 10 or more years behind those same cities which will be unveiling and completeing other new projects.

KCPowercat · Post by **KCPowercat** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:35 pm

I agree we need to look beyond cities that some think are ahead of us (Denver for example)....these cities are our peer cities, not model cities.

That being said, I'm not sure putting the arena inside the loop instead of the north side of Crown Center counters this thinking.

You still have a beautiful, organic loft area in City market, continue the booming residential population and mix in a solid retail district that connects the PAC/Bartle to the east side of the loop where the arena would be. Then improve north-south streetscapes through the crossroads to make those 4-6 blocks actually walkable by people and that connects to the 4th district, Crown Center/Union Station/Liberty Memorial.

I could see the crossroads boom under this scenario as well....let it continue to grow organically and with anchors like a "SoLo District" to the north and Crown Center to the south, it can't help but fill in and become an even better urban area.....

we are truly blessed with so many great urban districts already for a city our size...now to take each of those to the next level and connect them better....that I think is the true key. Growing them will naturally let them connect.....Crossroads will be a prime example of that I think.

KCgridlock · Post by **KCgridlock** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:44 pm

Now you guys are talking. But how do we do that?, I have been on that bandwagon for years and feel as if people still are not interested. Or they bitch and complain about how far behind kc is and then are first in line to slam somebody ideas for making it better. They sure don't want to have to pay for it these ideas.

Anyway, back to the arena over the freeway. I don't think the Feds would allow it now with terrorism. It's hard enough trying to get the ballroom approved. Too easy to drive a truck bomb under twenty thousand seat arena. Sad, but it's the world we live in now.

Post by **mean** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 5:04 pm

Even with BRT or light rail, it would still be hard to quickly move 20,000 convention goers to an arena at Crown Center.

That's a big part of the reason why BRT and light rail suck.

Here it comes again... http://skytran.net/03Economics/s09.htm

Post by **dangerboy** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:07 pm

mean wrote:That's a big part of the reason why BRT and light rail suck.

Here it comes again... http://skytran.net/03Economics/s09.htm

That scheme seems kind of pie in the, uh, sky.