Why are we falling behind?

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 4:12 pm

Why is KC falling behind in skyscraper production? I've heard several say there isn't market for them, nor anyone wants to build them. How do we explain this for Detroit, Denver, Cincinnati, Minneapolis, Cleveland, Milwaukee, and St. Louis?
I included STL cause they now have a casino proposed which is 20-30 floors tall.

Here is a diagram of these cities skyscrapers which are proposed:
http://www.skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?4220628

So why are we falling behind? Whats your $0.02?

eliphar17 · Post by **eliphar17** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 5:15 pm

What exactly is happening with those proposed skyscrapers? And where are you finding that info?

It seems like there simply is no demand in Kansas City for a substantial skyscraper because of the lure of the suburbs. However, I would say there's an excellent chance that sometime this decade, a company will decide that the environment downtown is good enough to support new office space.

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 5:46 pm

but STL is almost all suburb also, (although they have a height limit)

Good2Great · Post by **Good2Great** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:01 pm

Based on the quality of KCDevin's posts, I'm sure our education system isn't to blame. What could it be?

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:04 pm

hey that is what one of my teachers said so dont blame me for it!

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:36 pm

Devin...isn't 2555 Grand being built at Crown Center 25 floors?

That casino in STL is probably a hotel towner. The new OP Sheraton and the one on the Plaza are like 19 floors.

There'd be more highrises if there were more large companies moving and expanding.

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 11:29 pm

i'm talking just proposed like right now, 2555 Grand has been u/c for almost 3 years now. Anyhow, im just wondering why we arent booming like other cities.

mpls · Post by **mpls** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:20 am

the tall denver one and the cincy one won't get built.
don't worry, kc should start to get some highrise residential soon. the same type of thing was happening in minneapolis then a bold developer built a 27 story high-rise, that was a smashing success and they haven't slowed down yet.
kc's time will come.

ignatius · Post by **ignatius** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:16 am

KC doesn't build speculatively. It takes a commitment and lease from large businesses before a high-rise is considered.

Another problem is that 98% of people in KC drive to work so sadly very expensive and over-sized parking garages are necessary and the burbs have the advantage there. In Minneapolis, 30% of downtown workers don't drive to work (according to a KC Star article I once read).

We need to get businesses to commit to downtown and reduce the need for parking in order to get more towers. If the heavy commuter rail plan from JoCo and Lee's Summit to Union Station ever occurs, I'd suspect Crown Center will take off with the towers at the expense of the downtown Loop. OTOH, as the resident base increases in the Loop, less may need to drive to work and more towers can happen with less parking. But we need 5-10K more residents in the Loop, which will take a while.

phxcat · Post by **phxcat** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:07 pm

The key word there, Devin, is proposed. How much have we had proposed that has fallen through? You know of that as well as anyone. What are the chances of many of those proposals coming through? Denver or Cinncinnati might getone or two, but I don't think they could support all of those. And I saw the St. Louis people wetting their pants over the casino tower- but it is just a casino (and no, St. Louis is not abou to become the Las Vegas of the Midwest!) and I don't believe from that picture that the thing will be that big, if it gets built. The important thing to remember is that we are definitely headed in the right direction with the loft development. If we can get the transit together, the buildings will come. And, we still don't know what will come of W&R and H&R Bloch.

phxcat · Post by **phxcat** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:08 pm

And, in the meantime, don;t forget that we will get something out of the Fed!

Post by **dangerboy** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:52 pm

There ain't going to be any new high-rises until the vacancy rate gets much smaller. And the vacancy rate ain't going down until Downtown becomes a more attractive business location. No one will build specutively right now, they would have to have a major tenant like H&R Block or Waddell lined up before building a new high rise. But this time around there is plenty of room to accomodate those two companies in the existing office space.

SonicBoi · Post by **SonicBoi** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:19 pm

KCDevin wrote:i'm talking just proposed like right now, 2555 Grand has been u/c for almost 3 years now. Anyhow, im just wondering why we arent booming like other cities.

My first day there is Monday 11/24!!!

mpls · Post by **mpls** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:33 pm

phxcat wrote:The key word there, Devin, is proposed. How much have we had proposed that has fallen through? You know of that as well as anyone. What are the chances of many of those proposals coming through? Denver or Cinncinnati might getone or two, but I don't think they could support all of those. And I saw the St. Louis people wetting their pants over the casino tower- but it is just a casino (and no, St. Louis is not abou to become the Las Vegas of the Midwest!) and I don't believe from that picture that the thing will be that big, if it gets built. The important thing to remember is that we are definitely headed in the right direction with the loft development. If we can get the transit together, the buildings will come. And, we still don't know what will come of W&R and H&R Bloch.

the 443' minne one will get built. another +/- 40 storey one proposed by the same developer will most likely get built, a 20 story one by tandem has community support so it'll get built, and our other two biggies (pillsbury 1020 units and ballpark area 2000+ units) will be built in phases so they should get built.

look at what kc has going for it, the printing press and the library - great stimulus for greater change. and didn't you guys just pass a transportation initiative?

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:37 pm

great for you SonicBoi!

Thanks for the inspiration mpls

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:08 pm

Devin...

This building was "proposed" not too long ago...

35-40 floors, but since that law firm went to the Plaza...talk died down.

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:40 am

Devin, most cities don't have 30 story buildings going condo either. As soon as we re-use what we already have, new ones will come.

Oh and that proposed building at 10th & Main is still an active proposal, it's just waiting for a tenant, which is unlikely for a while. The garage south of the transit center is designed to accomodate a large office tower (and expanded garage) on top of it. If all goes as planned Downtown in the next few years, that spot will become a hot spot for new office space.

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:46 am

Why wouldn't H&R Block pick that office tower? It has only 600,000sq ft for their 700,000sq ft but still, i'm sure it can be messed with a little to increase the height and the width of it. Or convert some of the parking garage to office space.
EDIT:
I just counted the floors (what I thought were) and it came out... 34.
May not only be the address

Joe KC · Post by **Joe KC** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:17 am

Don't forget also that the economy is in the crapper. Office vacancy rates are astronomical everywhere, not just KC. You would NEED a tenant like Block already lined up to even get a loan on a major (or even minor) office project.

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:39 pm

I emailed city hall about this shortly after i created this thread. Here is the reply:

"In my opinion, building plans, including heights are market driven.
Developers will build what the market demands and although plans are
sometimes approved by the City - it is the option of the developer to
build
them or not.

Also, although the Downtown Loop is our historic downtown, Kansas City
has
a number of areas in which traditional Downtown office space is built.
Recently office buildings in both the Crown Center and Plaza area have
been
or are being built. Many of these other communities that you list have
more compact Downtown office markets than we do.

I hope this helps."