National Blues Museum (St. Louis)

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Louman
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Re: National Blues Museum (St. Louis)

Post by Louman » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:14 am

Sigh..........

First how rude. In this silly exchange, I’ve never stooped to calling you names. It's not that serious. Well........ maybe to you. :D

Anyway, you can’t possibly believe that a few websites which demonstrate more registered members, venues and bands on webpages somehow makes KC a blues-ier city or more “prolific” when it comes to the Blues. :lol:

If so, that’s astonishing and lame. The KC BBQ Society has been around for a longer time too, but that doesn’t mean the BBQ tastes better over there.

I think it is wise for a reasonable (or sensible) (or practical) person - who wants to be truly objective - to use layers of available resources (or multiple metrics) in order to be able to properly gauge (or measure) a specific topic more objectively.

That’s what real researchers do. The cumulative result may be able to yield a more balanced perspective.

As far as I am concerned, who knows? KC’s Blues Society may be more aggressive at recruiting members, keeping its website up-to-date to reflect bands for hire and venues willing to host them. Good for KC. Good!!! St. Louis' Blues Society just elected a NEW and YOUNG President. Here's an excerpt of his interview from the article,
..........much of the organization’s focus had been to “take care of the old guys,” seeing to the careers and welfare of older blues musicians such as Oliver Sain, Johnnie Johnson, Henry Townsend and Tommy Bankhead.

“It had been about a certain group of musicians,” he says. “I really care about those people, and they’re not just people to read about in the books.”

But after they and others died, the group wasn’t sure what to do next or how to move forward.

Segel-Moss’ answer is to honor the past and spotlight the current, the future and the living.

All you keep talking about are all of those old ass people, venues and bands - many of which are likely NOT TO BE “pure” Blues bands - being listed as members on your local “blues society” webpages. Meanwhile, St. Louis' Blues Society appears to be freshening itself up.

Anyway, I provided additional METRICS and it’s okay they ruffled your feathers. While I am aiming to be objective, you are aiming to win and to be right.

For the record, all of our so-called metrics are anecdotal methodology i.e. unreliable, subjective, untrustworthy and undependable. Never mind the website I provided (stlouisbands.com) listed additional Blues bands to counter your limited list. Never mind that I demonstrated St. Louis has some of the longest running Blues festivals in the country – particularly in Missouri. Never mind that YOU posted an inept (and still incomplete) list of live music venues, bars and restaurants where live Blues are played. Never mind you dismissed YELP as “Google” when Google is actually one of the greatest all-time metric search engines EVER. Lol.

Further, by me pointing out that the St. Louis Musician’s Association has been around since 1862 was to illustrate that all musicians and bands SINCE THEN – including Blues musicians LATER – were able to network as well as be represented by this organization. Of course organized Blues hasn't been around that long, dummy. But truthfully, if you know the history of the Blues they have been around LONGER – just not organized or “coined” as such. The roots of the Blues actually date back to Africa. This is what the National Blues Museum in downtown St. Louis illustrates.

Then you keep bringing up a “winning" KC Blues band as though that somehow really legitimizes your argument. Not sure what that's about.

Yeah! KC has a winning Blues band that has managed to put a string of wins together in a Blues band competition. Yeah! Way to go KC! That’s how you show ‘em! Kudos.

Meanwhile, roots music extraordinaire, St. Louis’-own Pokey LaFarge and his band have been charting on Billboard (http://www.billboard.com/artist/5645472 ... arge/chart) and have been getting write-ups in Rolling Stone (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/ ... l-20151006) and Billboard (http://www.billboard.com/artist/5645472 ... /biography) magazines.

His band has appeared on David Lettermen (2013) and at the Grand Old Opry (numerous times) and has traveled INTERNATIONALLY with his brand of blues, country, folk, ragtime and jazz music.

And for the record, Blues and Rock and Roll LEGENDS such as Chuck Berry, Ernie Isley of The Isley Brothers, Barbara Carr and Big George Brock ARE STILL performing around St. Louis TODAY. LEGENDS!

Ultimately, our metrics don’t come from an official voting or measuring body that can certify and verify without-a-doubt which community is more “prolific” than the other.

Come on dude.

At the end of the day, we can dig up articles, reference Blues links and stats all week, but nothing changes the fact that country’s and the Midwest’s first MAJOR museum dedicated to Blues music is in downtown St. Louis.

NOTHING changes that!

Louman
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Re: National Blues Museum (St. Louis)

Post by Louman » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:24 am

You don't even want to talk about jazz as I personally know 12 STL jazz musicians that have MOVED TO KC over the last 2 years TO GET WORKING GIGS because the STL jazz scene isn't supporting them.
Of course you do. :lol: :D

They actually left St. Louis to go to Kansas City and not Chicago, New Orleans or NYC. Kansas City........okay.

And if true, what that would mean is that they left because they were not among the cream of the crop of what St. Louis has to offer locally.

St. Louis grows jazz musicians - particularly instrumentalists - like grass.

UMSL - St. Louis Jazz Honor Roll

And that list isn't complete. I immediately saw several left off.

And by the way, did you know KC's-own Don Cheadle is now in a movie, which Cheadle produced, portraying St. Louis-area Jazz legend, Miles Davis? The movie is out now. Kudos to Don! =D>

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Re: National Blues Museum (St. Louis)

Post by chingon » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:01 pm

Don Cheadle is from Denver.

BBQ does taste better here.

And "Boy George's prostate"? JFC. You are not better than this.

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Re: National Blues Museum (St. Louis)

Post by brewcrew1000 » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:53 pm

chingon wrote:Don Cheadle is from Denver.
He must still have family here because I once saw him at KCI with his entire family. I was on the plane in which Don's just came from and i overheard the flight attendant saying "That was the guy from SNL" They assumed he was Tim Meadows. This was in 2004, guess he wasn't that big back then.

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Re: National Blues Museum (St. Louis)

Post by shinatoo » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:59 pm

Yes, his nephew was a football standout at Lees Summit West a couple of years ago.
Quocunque Jeceris Stabit

Louman
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Re: National Blues Museum (St. Louis)

Post by Louman » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:49 am

Here we go................again. :shock:
See here you go again. I only know of the STL musicians that moved here, how would I know the ones that moved to Chicago, NYC, etc? You're inference is that Chicago, NYC etc have better scenes, that's not the issue at all. The STL musicians that moved HERE did so to stay close to STL so they could still do their gigs there (in STL) as well. Again you're showing ignorance of how pro musicians work.
You can’t read. I suggested why would a jazz musician “move” to Kansas City, when Chicago is just up the road too? Chicago’s jazz and Blues scenes are stronger than both. I too know how pro-musicians work. That’s never been the issue. Don’t assume something about me which you have no clue. You are making up issues as you go along. I personally know a few musicians who not only gig in St. Louis, but they gig in other cities too. They never mention Kansas City – and that’s not a dig. But I'm sure KC is a great gig city.
Swing and a miss again because status isn't why they left. They are all young pro players trying to establish themselves in STL where there are very few paying gigs for jazz musicians. KC has twice as many paying venues and the UMKC Jazz program draws many players regionally.
The magic words you stated are “trying to establish” themselves, which proves my point. You say they are “young pro players”, yet they are “trying to establish” themselves in STL. That validates my point. If you are a good and established musician in STL, getting a paying gig is not an issue. It could also be what you want as compensation. St. Louis is frugal. And although the gig scene can get crowded in St. Louis because of the depth of ESTABLISHED or resident musicians, it’s good places like New Orleans, NYC, Chicago – and Kansas City – exist for them. St. Louis cannot accommodate all who want to be accommodated. St. Louis is a great pipeline city for jazz and R&B instrumentalists. I'm not going to even debate that. Ask Maxwell, Patti LaBelle, Stevie Wonder, Beyonce, Jill Scott, Robert Glasper, Lizz Wright, Roy Hargrove, Harry Connick, Jr. etc. etc.

Nonetheless, it still amazes me how you throw out the "twice as many paying venues".......LOL! How do you come up with these magnificent numbers? "Twice as many paying venues"? Seriously.....Again, pull up YELP. That isn't the case.

Also, UMSL has a Jazz program too which is a regional draw as well. Also, St. Louis has a number of Jazz academies, youth jazz concerts, camps, education centers, etc. etc. for youngsters and adults. Additionally, in 2014, STL opened one of the premier Jazz centers in the country (The Harold and Dorothy Steward Center For Jazz) in Grand Center. It is not a museum. It's an intimate two-level jazz performance hall with a multi-level state-of-the-art education center attached. The complex also features a jazz restaurant and a jazz bar. It was christened by Wynton Marsalis.

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A youth jazz concert at UMSL's Touhill Performing Arts Center
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Below are students from the Centene Jazz Education Center and jazz camp in Grand Center.

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Jazz extraordinaire, Joshua Redman, who is always in St. Louis, shown with St. Louis Jazz campers.
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LOL, every jazz musician knows about the new Miles movie coming out soon. That's great, except STL won't be featured in it at all. KC and it's many famous jazz musicians have been portrayed in movies for decades. Check out the "The Last of The Blue Devils," Robert Altman's film "Kansas City" and Clint Eastwood's "Bird" along with others.
LOL! It doesn’t matter if St. Louis is featured in the movie or not. LOL! It’s about Miles Davis – and everybody in music (as well as outside of it) knows where he was from. LOL! There's even been Miles Davis Festivals in Alton and East St. Louis, Illinois - both towns were he lived. Davis has a statue in downtown Alton............and don't bother.........I know Charlie Parker has one in Kansas City. #-o

On the movie battle, I'm going to go WAY back on you. There have been countless movies on Scott Joplin. Billy Dee Williams portrayed him. Although Joplin was "The Father of Ragtime", if it were not for him, there’d be no jazz. He composed some of his most famous rags in St. Louis, and his home in Midtown St. Louis is preserved by the State of Missouri. Then there's Josephine Baker(http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102167/). There have been movies and biopics on Ike and Tina Turner. And yes, they did jazz too ( https://www.discogs.com/Ike-Tina-Turner ... se/1519017) although their repertoire was largely Blues and R&B. There are other movies about music figures important to St. Louis including movies about W.C. Handy, "The Father of the Blues" who actually LIVED and WORKED in St. Louis for a short time. It was then when he wrote the “St. Louis Blues”. There are several movies titled, “St. Louis Blues” and the first one was in 1929,which Handy himself co-wrote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis ... 1929_film) . Movies pertaining to St. Louis' music history cover almost every music genre. These are just a few. LOL!

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The "society" websites were only a part of my research. I added your extra clubs to the STL list and you still lose. You lose in every single metric, you're arguing against the evidence.
LOLOLOL!! Again, you are in denial. LOLOL! It’s not a good look for someone who claims to be familiar with both regions’ music scenes. You (or the resources you cited) missed 10 or more venues in the City of St. Louis alone. Not good. Your resources like mine, again, are ANECDOTAL. Look up the word. They don’t paint a full picture – only to you apparently.

Here are more anecdotal metrics via Google Search:

"St. Louis Blues music" returned about 9,240,000 results (0.68 seconds)
"Kansas City Blues music" returned about 1,170,000 results (0.66 seconds)

"St. Louis Blues" returned 38,000,000 results (0.45 seconds)
"Kansas City Blues" returned 14,000,000 results (0.61 seconds)

"Kansas City Jazz" returned about 14,800,000 results (0.89 seconds)
"St. Louis Jazz" returned about 17,000,000 results (0.86 seconds)

Does that make STL somehow better?........No. But it does help to debunk a lot of what you thought you knew. :shock:
I did that and showed the links, you simply ignored them as you do all evidence.

Umm. I didn't "ignore" them. You posted half-assed information. They couldn't be taken seriously especially when it's CLEAR there were missing venues, bars and restaurants. On the other hand, you laughed at YELP’s discovery of 37 pages of venues/restaurants where people are actually commenting about enjoying Blues and jazz music while dining etc. etc. and MANY OF THEM ARE STILL NOT ON YOUR REVISED LIST. Lol!

And you still haven’t demonstrated one Blues festival held in KC longer than any I listed for St. Louis.
No, I used the Internet and personal knowledge of BOTH music scenes (KC & STL) to come up with the lists.
Your personal knowledge is not too good and/or BIASED when it comes to St. Louis. It’s very limited. On top of that, your lists referenced from webpage resources pertaining to STL, FAIL. It's really not your fault. It's the fault of the dated webpages and the information on them you referenced. I'm trying to be nice - and objective. :)
LOL, yeah thanks for showing us all how ridiculously clueless you are about "blues" music and the music scenes of both cities.
LOL! You just couldn’t read (or make the connection) so I had to clarify. I stand by what I wrote. And will continue to do so. No shame at all. Trust me.
Nationally recognized, award-winning bands are a big part of a city's music scene. That's why I used that as one metric in determining how KC's blues scene is better in every way than STL's.
Really?! Okay. Here's my metric in response to that.......

Rock and Roll Hall of Famers from St. Louis, with year inducted
Chuck Berry (1986): (The Father of Rock N Roll) (Rockabilly, Blues). He still performs in St. Louis.
Dennis Edwards (Temptations)(1989): Soul, R&B. Lives in St. Louis and runs his Temptations Revue out of St. Louis. Temptations Revue will be performing in St. Louis in June.
Ike and Tina Turner (1991): Blues, R&B, Rock N Roll and Jazz
The Isley Brothers (1992): Blues, Soul, Funk, R&B. Ron and Ernie Isley both live in STL. Ron co-owns STL-based Notifi Records and produces music in STL. Ernie performs at local Blues clubs/events.
Johnnie Johnson (2001): Blues
Miles Davis (2006): Jazz
Albert King (2013): Blues


Goodnight!
Last edited by Louman on Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:29 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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WSPanic
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Re: National Blues Museum (St. Louis)

Post by WSPanic » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:43 am

Our baseball team is better :)

Louman - if you can avoid engaging Harbinger911 during one of his psychotic breaks, you'll be a better person for it.

Museum looks cool, btw. Will have to check it out next time we're there. As mentioned earlier in the thread, I think we swung and missed a bit with our Jazz museum - it is a lot of headphones and not much else. At least the last time I was there.

Louman
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Re: National Blues Museum (St. Louis)

Post by Louman » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:28 am

WSPanic wrote:Our baseball team is better :)

Louman - if you can avoid engaging Harbinger911 during one of his psychotic breaks, you'll be a better person for it.

Museum looks cool, btw. Will have to check it out next time we're there. As mentioned earlier in the thread, I think we swung and missed a bit with our Jazz museum - it is a lot of headphones and not much else. At least the last time I was there.
Yes, last year, the Royals were better. =D> ;-)

In regards to "him" 8-[ , I've often wondered if I would ever get my few hours back responding to this guy. But honestly, it's been a lot of fun. :lol:

Personally, I'm proud of the fact that Missouri, which can be backwards as "fun word" at times, has four cities (St. Louis, Kansas City, Branson, Sedalia) that are rich in music history.

All have played vital roles in the evolution of America's music.

And ultimately, to me, a museum is a museum, once you've been to a few, you've been to them all.

It's just great to get one of such prominence in St. Louis, where locals, on average, can be too modest about St. Louis' role in America's music history.

Thanks to St. Louis, Chicago is now planning the "Chicago Blues Experience" museum. If or when it opens, Chicago's will become the next big thing in museums dedicated to music.

Below is a rendering of one of its planned exhibits.

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Re: National Blues Museum (St. Louis)

Post by WSPanic » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:27 am

Like I said... the meds should kick in eventually.

It's not your fault Harbinger, It's not your fault....

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Re: National Blues Museum (St. Louis)

Post by warwickland » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:07 am

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well now, this is a throwback!

personally, i'm more of a fan of the classic stl vs kc argument threads...god, this is like the newer forum members seeing the rolling stones for the first time at a 150 dollar ticket arena show from the nosebleeds 40 years after their prime.

it just aint the same.

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Re: National Blues Museum (St. Louis)

Post by warwickland » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:57 pm

or a way washed up brewer and shipley at the saline county fair during a heatwave.

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