STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

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rxlexi
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by rxlexi »

  thanks for the feedback StL guys.  I actually think StL has a pretty solid blanket transit system, certainly leagues ahead of KC.  I always note the Metro buses running around all over the burbs; if not frequently, at least the connectivity is there across the region, something KC has major trouble with.  However, even with the MAJOR investments in transit (namely Metrolink/Cross County ext), StL to me doesn't feel a whole lot better "connected", if that makes sense.  There isn't that shrinking of space and place that you feel when in a more linear (or better served) city.  It's a difficult feeling to describe, I guess. 

  Yes, one can access the CWE with Metrolink, for example, but the station, however functional it may be, is buried within a large medical center and a good few (quiet) blocks from the heart of the district.  Yes, one could hop off Metrolink on S.Grand and catch one of the many frequent buses that run down towards Grand South Grand/Tower Grove, but the nature of the station and connection in the industrial valley, with (again) the heart of the district a good distance away, doesn't exactly lend that feeling of "connect the dots" that a great transit system can provide. The majority of South City is screaming for a great access to the central Metrolink corridor, but the city really stretches downward quite a ways - it a big, broad urban core (and region), that has a more radial layout than say KC, and difficult to link quickly and effectively.  That was my point, I think, not necessarily that service is not possible or really deficient in some way. 
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by JivecitySTL »

rxlexi-- very astute observations.  I would agree with you.  Great meeting you a few weeks ago!
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by phuqueue »

JivecitySTL wrote: ^To answer some of your questions:

Yes, MetroLink trains already run more frequently than they did before Prop A passed.  They have added an additional rush-hour train on both the Red and Blue lines.  Buses have also been added and will continue to be added through August, which will increase frequency on the busiest routes.  Many of those routes, including MetroLink Red Line trains, will also run later into the night.  I remember the days when the 70 Grand bus ran 24 hours.  Now it runs until about 2am.  Perhaps they will reinstate late-night service on some routes.

There are only a handful of cities in this country that can truly be considered "transit-friendly" and of course STL is not one of them (in fact, I don't even consider Chicago a very transit-friendly place for a city of its size).  New York, Boston, San Francisco and DC are the best transit oriented cities in the country.  Philly and Chicago have good systems that could be better. 

As for light-rail accessibility, though, St. Louis is doing a great job, as evidenced by its increasingly strong ridership numbers.   No transit system is perfect and ours is no exception, but it too often gets a bad rap that is not deserved. 

Thanks for the info, I'm out of town all summer so I haven't been around yet to notice the Prop A changes, but glad to hear that Metrolink is running more frequently now and buses are increasing.

I actually agree on Chicago, transit there is not great for as big as the city is, but examples of great transit in the US are so rare that it stands out nonetheless.  I hear good things about transit in places like SF, Boston, and DC, but I haven't been to any of those places since I was a child.  Coming from KC (and now living in St. Louis), I'd take Chicago transit, but definitely there's plenty of room to improve it.
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by warwickland »

Chicago is a weird one, because transit is fairly good for a portion of the city, and certainly the densest parts, but because of its scale, the stretch of pre war neighborhoods to the south is so absolutely vast (this cant be understated) and underserved, its certainly not comparable to a place like San Francisco. I'm sure you could do some interesting things chopping the city up into smaller sections, lopping off vast areas and run the circle line, and you would end up with something fairly impressive, but it wouldnt be Chicago. Certainly, Metra stands out, central Chicago wouldnt be what it is today if it werent for Metra.
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by chrizow »

i don't see how transit is any better in san francisco than it is in chicago.  the BART only goes along basically one path through the city of san francisco, and if you're in the western part of the city at all, youre a pretty long way from the BART.  the busses are plentiful, and fine i suppose, but they don't seem to be any better than busses anywhere else.  we took several busses when we were there last time and we often had to wait forever for them.  in chicago, esp. on the south side, transit can be spotty, but i feel like you're rarely all that far from a CTA station or you can at least take a bus to the station if need be?
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by warwickland »

chrizow wrote: i don't see how transit is any better in san francisco than it is in chicago.  
I meant that its not comparable in that its, well not easy to compare. I certainly remember transit being about the same, difference being that the urban core of metro SF is arranged in a completely different way. There is a degree of novelty with the transit options in SF that Chicago doesnt have, but does it really make a difference?
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by LenexatoKCMO »

chrizow wrote: i don't see how transit is any better in san francisco than it is in chicago.  the BART only goes along basically one path through the city of san francisco, and if you're in the western part of the city at all, youre a pretty long way from the BART. 
Don't forget the MUNI - for some reason the MUNI always seems to intimidate tourists but it does cover a lot more ground in the city than BART.
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by chrizow »

true.  we didn't really use the muni, even though we should have.
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by phuqueue »

Like I said, I haven't been to SF since I was a kid, but I understand (as told by a friend, albeit a Los Angeles resident, but one who visits SF a few times a year) that MUNI is really the local transit system and BART is more of a commuter system.  That hadn't really been my perception of BART before he told me that, but it'd explain why BART coverage is apparently not spectacular, especially since Lenexa mentioned that MUNI covers more of the city itself.  Seems like BART isn't really intended to get you around the city proper, so no wonder if you have trouble trying to use it that way.
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by DaveKCMO »

okay, back to STL...
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by STLguy1 »

I see where Joe Edwards envisions the trolley to run to the STL riverfront one day.  This guy is truly a visionary.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 675fe.html
This is true and you know what... the guy get's it done too.  every "public" vision/idea this guy has done in STL has come to fruition and done quickly! 
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by flyingember »

Almost five years after it received federal funds, construction began in March 2015.

Opening estimated for late 2016.
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by ntbpo »

:roll: Thats about how fast things get accomplished over here in STL. Theres always gotta be 9zillion lawsuits and NIMBYS to fight everthing that seems progressive.
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by shinatoo »

STL: 2.2 mile route, 48 million, includes maintenance facility
KC: 2 miles route, 114 million, includes maintenance facility

Why the huge price difference? What are we getting that they aren't. What makes a streetcar 2.37 times more expensive than a trolley?
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by normalthings »

shinatoo wrote:STL: 2.2 mile route, 48 million, includes maintenance facility
KC: 2 miles route, 114 million, includes maintenance facility

Why the huge price difference? What are we getting that they aren't. What makes a streetcar 2.37 times more expensive than a trolley?
"Where will the Trolley operate? The 2.2-mile Loop Trolley will run along Delmar Blvd. and DeBaliviere Avenue, connecting The Loop restaurant, shopping, and arts & entertainment district to Forest Park, with a stop at the Missouri History Museum. On DeBaliviere, the Trolley will run in both directions in a single designated lane." - http://www.looptrolley.com

Their trolley will operate for most of the route in only one lane. Our street car will operate in 2 lanes. This adds significantly to the cost.
As their website says, the loop trolley mainly connects touristy areas. Personally their trolley sounds much more like touristy frufru than our streetcar.

Forgive if Im wrong, but a trolley is a single car and a street car has multiple cars. This adds some to the cost. There's a good possibility that our maintenance facility Is built to have room to service future routes.
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by kcjak »

Has anyone in KC considered using a single track going from downtown to Plaza area? Trains could run in each direction, with passing areas at stops?
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by normalthings »

kcjak wrote:Has anyone in KC considered using a single track going from downtown to Plaza area? Trains could run in each direction, with passing areas at stops?

Could elaborate more
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by normalthings »

Could you elaborate more? *
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by FangKC »

The KC streetcar website says the construction cost will be $102 million, not $114 million. I would also imagine that the cost of our streetcar is higher because the City also did major infrastructure work at the same time--fixing 120-year-old water mains and sewers under the streets--some made out of wood. KC also had to build a new maintenance facility from scratch. St. Louis renovated an existing maintenance building. The St. Louis trolley uses a one-car system. The KC system uses a newer, higher-tech, multi-car system. In this case, three-cars.

The St. Louis street trolley will have 10 stops. Kansas City is building 16 streetcar stop shelters.

http://www.kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/u ... -15_v5.pdf
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Re: STL Obtains Federal Funds for Trolley System

Post by kcjak »

ldai_phs wrote:Could you elaborate more? *
I'm not sure I can explain well, but here goes: right now we have one northbound and one southbound track taking up two lanes in most blocks. Are there any cities that use a single track for both northbound and southbound traffic? That means the track would split into separate NB/SB tracks for about half a block or so when trains meet at various stops, whether trains veer all the way to the sidewalk or share an island in the middle of the road. Hope that makes sense.
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