Johnson County?

[GRID]

I'll say it again:

Sure, the KCMO government may have had some issues, but come on, they didn’t drive people out of KCMO, white flight did.

No where else in the country can you move two blocks away and change states so easily leaving behind all the urban problems that metro areas deal with. It happened everywhere in the country, but seems exaggerated here with KCMO/JoCo.

JoCo grew dramatically for many reasons and most of them were luck, here are a few reasons.

Being next to two nearly developed urban cities KCK & KCMO when white flight kicked into high gear.

Having a vast area of flat and easily developable land and a grid pattern of farm roads that could accommodate growth much easier than the rolling forests, flood plains and limestone bases of the north and east parts of the metro, plus it’s closer or was closer.

The cities and counties have no responsibility to maintain an aging infrastructure and therefore could build new roads with few expensive bridges. Same goes for schools etc.

A move to KS would protect those who did not want their schools to be segregated by the government. This has always been a threat to suburban Missouri schools and still is.

Are able to use more of their tax money to build these new cheaper roads as KCMO was still responsible for maintaining everything from the bus system to public health care to the stadiums to homeless shelters to the zoo (you get the idea) all the while KCMO wealthy tax payers were leaving for suburbs and taking their tax money with them.

KC had a city of 500,000 people in a relatively small area. This was a good city with good neighborhoods until whites left in droves. The city did not have much desire or money to build up infrastructure in the Northland as it was just trying to keep the original city together.

Being able to tap into a huge base of residents and businesses with the lure of tax breaks and new infrastructure.

But here is the biggie:

Take some urban planning or history courses and you will be amazed at how much our federal government is to blame for sprawl and decay in all of our large cities. I don’t have time to explain it now, but believe me, that’s how it all started and you can still see residual effects of the government incentives etc in the real estate industry who had yet to fully recover.

Call up Remax, say you are relocating from LA and ask what part of KC you should move too.

JoCo lucked out, good for them, now can we all get off KCMO’s back, they could be a lot worse off given it’s circumstances.

KCMO is bouncing back quite nicely now.

[GRID]

I have some good black friends and when they had children and needed to move, they chose LS. They wouldn't be caught dead in JoCo for reasons I don't want to get into and many of you would not believe it anyway. JoCo is by far one of the whitest counties in the nation, it makes places like BS, LS, and KCNorth seem extremely diverse.

[GRID]

Oh, and great cities do have and need great suburbs, but JoCo in only a great suburb, they still don't want to be a great suburb of a great city.

The joco people on this forum are an exeption, I dare anyone to create a little survey about KCMO and randomly ask people in JoCo to take the survey.

It would scare you.

[GRID]

JoCo is a nice burb and it's residents support KC attractions, but I wish we could move on and build things like stadiums etc without screwing with them. There is over a million people on the MO side (and contary to the real-estate industry and many JoCo peeps, good schools and neighborhoods too) Lets just do what we have to do with our own recources without making it look like we want JoCo handouts for it and just charge them more or charge the MO/KC counties less.

The Bistate thing will never work.

[GuyInLenexa]

[There are schools on the MO side that are just as good, if not better. Lee's Summit and Blue Springs are two that are extremely good school districts. And they are building new schools instead of closing existing schools as in Shawnee Mission. Yet JoCo, for now anyway, still has more growth. So it's not racism and it's not the schools, so what is it?]

Lee's Summit and Blue Springs are growing, are their people racist? I think not. It seems that you think that the growth of JOCO is due to a sinister reason.
True some schools have been closed in SM and BV ISDs, they are being very fiscally responsible. I do not think this will cause a decline in the quality or what the students test at.

Perhaps you should ask the people or businesses that locate here why they chose JOCO to live in instead of the other areas.

I still do not understand because this site shows many examples of all areas of the KC Metro growing, not just JOCO.

I am surprised that someone has not accused JOCO of being ruled by Satan or Saddam or performing human sacrifices for prosperity.

Look at what is done right by a person or place, if they or it are succesful, don't try to make it seem that a person or place become succesful by doing something wrong.

For some members of this forum the JOCO hate can make an appearance of jealosy. There is no reason for it.

Many of my black friends chose to live here also, what were thier reasons to move here?

KCMO itself is one of the most segregated cities I have ever seen. There is a huge line running down Holmes showing a vast demographic differences in the city, look at the census maps. As JOCO grows it will become more diverse, it already is changing.

Accusing a general population of someting like racism is uncanny. And making such a terrible accusation is horrible.

Interesting reflection on J.C.Nichol's and SW High School.



G.I.L.



[/quote]

[scooterj]

There are schools on the MO side that are just as good, if not better. Lee's Summit and Blue Springs are two that are extremely good school districts. And they are building new schools instead of closing existing schools as in Shawnee Mission. Yet JoCo, for now anyway, still has more growth. So it's not racism and it's not the schools, so what is it?

Lee's Summit and Blue Springs are growing, are their people racist? I think not. It seems that you think that the growth of JOCO is due to a sinister reason.

Reread my last sentence... "So it's not racism..." I was saying that the growth to the southwest cannot be explained today by racism and that it cannot be due to the schools because the Missouri schools are just as good. I was pondering why JoCo grows so much faster than other areas.

My thoughts on it are this:

JC Nichols started the trend. When the racist white flight started, it went southwest because that was the direction that allowed affluent whites access to the central city without needing to cross through what had become established black neighborhoods.

Today I do not believe racism is anywhere near the factor it was back then. I think that the difference in growth rates today is caused by two factors: the momentum started in the 40s and 50s, and the fact that the topography on the Missouri side makes it impossible to build an endless sea of conformity.

The tide is slowly starting to change though. Housing developments on the Kansas side are going in at a ridiculous distance from the central core, and the traffic on 435, 35 and 69 is just getting stupid. So people who don't really like the suburban lifestyle are starting to move back into the city. And people who prefer the suburban lifestyle are realizing that they can have the exact same way of life in Lee's Summit or Blue Springs or Grain Valley or eastern Independence or North of the River cheaper and with an easier commute.

Is there a sinister element to JoCo? No... except for one: JoCo's active recruitment of companies from KCMO. You don't see Lee's Summit, Blue Springs, or Independence doing that.

[phxcat]

If Johnson Coutny was as racist as some people (no names, but the initials are SHOWME) say, Shawnee Mission North would be about 80% hispanic and 20% black. The fact that the neighborhood is changing, and the White people are staying there belies that idiotic comment. To say that Johnsons County is racist and that the Missouri suburbs are not is equaly idiotic. I hate to say this, but Showme, what have you contributed to this forum? There are others here I have had disagreements with, but all I see out of you is line after line of hatred toward Kansas. That has no value.

Back to the subject- Who knows how Johnson County got started- there is a white flight factor in the development of every suburb. The only thing that would have kept the Northland from being your poster boy for white flight (except your anti-Kansas bigotry) is the river. After the ball got rolling, though, Johnson county just became the place to be. At that point, racism has nothing to do with it.

Facts:

Blue Springs:

93% White
2.9% Black
2.8% Hispanic

Lee's Summit:
93% White
3.5% Black
2% Hispanic

Clay County:
95.2% White
2.7% Black
3.6% Hispanic

Johnson County:
91% White
2.6% Black
4% Hispanic

Olathe (for good measure)
88.6% White
3.7% Black
5.4% Hispanic

Where is the diversity? Stop the crap and get constructive.

[bahua]

That was awesome.

[StL_Dan]

phxcat.....where and how recent are the stats you pulled on Olahte's ethnic numbers?

reason I ask, the latest I heard after the census was Hispanic pop around 10-12%.

[GRID]

OK, I got a little carried away saying JoCo is more white than other suburbs.

Also, I'm not a racist and I never said JoCo was racist. I do stand by what I said, that race is what kicked off JoCo's boom and all the other reasons I listed are very true. Today JoCo just feeds off that success and to a lesser extent those other reasons I mentioned that made it grow to where it is today.

Basically it's little comments like "People moved to JoCo for better schools", "People moved to JoCo because KCMO gov was corrupt" etc. Yet I also continually hear how JoCo doesn't want to do bistate or how they want something in return. WTF, JoCo has been getting something for nothing for 50 years. See I can't even type this without getting irritated.

Anyway...

I just have a very short fuse when JoCo people say ignorant stuff about how the city evolved, how it is now and why JoCo exists.

KCMO had (and still has some) good schools and nice homes with yards till white flight kicked in.

One set of my grandparents lived on Swope Parkway till the 80's when they were by far the only white family left on what was one hell of a street, they loved the new black neighbors and did not want to move until they had to downsize their home. They didn't go far (west of Raytown). The area is trashed out now and it's sad. I think it will come back though.

My other set of grandparents still live in a similar big urban shirtwaist home only east of Loose Park in what is still the best neighborhood in KC, for some reason the race never screwed up this area and they will never leave even though their heat bills are more than my mortgage.

I have memories of Loose Park, The Plaza, riding city buses, big tree lined streets, no attached garages, going to very diverse schools, pro sports, walking to everything etc. A trip to Lee's Summit was like driving to StL. Kids now only know of the mall or walmart or soccer games and are exposed to urbanity and culture very little. My kids know more about urban KCMO than most adults in Blue Springs and they love the city.

I'm not exactly fond of Blue Springs and can't wait for the day I can move back to the city, but I defend Blue Springs when someone from JoCo pulls the "don't go to MO, good schools are in KS" etc, because suburban growth in MO is better for the metro than suburban growth in KS.

Kinda like the main reason I am an MU fan is to let people know I don't like or could care less about KU.

I don't know what all this means, other than I am just about as KCMO as you can get. It's in my blood. Don't take it personal.

I'm not jealous of JoCo in the least. Too many people out there have such little respect for the city that put them on the map and after years of hearing comments etc that most people probably ignore or don't notice, I no longer can help myself and I respond with the same lack of respect.

So anyway, I'm done ranting.

[phxcat]

Those are great memories to have. I wish I had them like yours, all I have is my grandmother's neighborhood in Topeka, the Macvicar area- the old houses with porches and allies running behind them. I remember walking with my cousins to a Dairy Queen that was all walk-up- and there were a bunch of people there who had walked up. I agree that that is how life should be- more community, less stress. You are as KCMO as you can get, I was born and raised in Kansas. I am a fan of KCK, and I hate that everything seems to be on the Missouri side. Haveing the biggest suburbs, and the racetrack is little consolation for Missouri having the best urban neighborhoods and the stadiums, and the potential new arena. I wich Marinovich would step up and make KCK a true urban sister of KCMO. I think the potential is there for that to happen, with the increase in Hipanic population. That is another rant, however. Although I have very little conncection with Wichita, I want it to grow too and I look at what Defiant has to say over on SSP. That is part of the burden that we bear as Kansas Citians. I want what is best for the Kansas side, you want what is best for the Missouri side, and we all want what is best for the city. That is something that makes Kansas City unique to any other major city in the country. What should be a strength is so often a weekness. There are other cities with state lines, but we are the only one with that big a divide. The bottom line is that growth of suburbs metrowide is good as long as it is real growth- people coming from outside the metro. And, as has been stated on this board, the cities in the metro need to stop stealing from each other. Both states have strengths that they should use to their advantages. Kansas should be working on bringing business from theWest Coast. The Kansas side is more similar to Western cities. They are less likely to want to settle io a downtown than an Eastern city because (in the case of Phoenix, at least) that is what they know. Similarly, Kansas as a state has more Mexican immigration than Missouri, and the state is looking at making the laws even more liberal in regards to undocumented immigrants- drivers licenses, college admitance for state high shcool graduates- those factors should be used to become a destination for Latin American immigrants- which will boost the local economy, and perhaps help the city to increase its presence with Mexican firms- becomeing more of an international bussiness center.

I'm ranting again. Sorry. The numbers came from the US census bureau- 2000 census numbers. I have also heard that the Hispanic numbers in Olathe are up around 10%, which is very impressive considering that Hispanic growth has had to far outpace Anglo growth in Olathe for that to happen.

[GRID]

Nice reply and I couldn't agree more. I think once KCMO's urban core is once again the envy of the Midwest, the attitude in JoCo will change and not only will they respect KCMO, they will want to be a part of it through bi-state etc. and in return, my attitude and other long time KCMO residents (like all of my family) should change for the better as well. This is a dream isn’t it?

It's weird, I never really even thought about Kansas till I got a license and started to drive around the metro. There really wasn't anything over there but Metcalf South. I never got to experience Indian Springs in it's heyday, but I know that was a booming area at one time. Over time, I went to KS for two reasons, to watch office buildings UC and to Malibu Grand Prix. Anyway, I still go to KS a lot, as well as the Northland and of course the urban core, I like the area, just wish the attitude was a little more pro metro KC.

But KCK really has gotten the shaft. Like Deadmanwalking has said, there is nothing over there.

I too have always wished KCK could be a twin city of KCMO or at least a smaller sister city like St Paul. But you have to blame Kansans for that. How many opportunities have Kansas side companies had to go to KCK instead of OP. If half the office space in OP were constructed in higher density office buildings in KCK, that city would rock and would have a condo and loft boom right along side of KCMO right now. Then it would be cool for KCK to have the metro's main arena or something. But putting it out in the middle of nowhere is yet another embarrassment and black eye to the KC metro area.

I don't think KCK will ever be more than what it is now, a diverse blue collar city, but the 435 corridor will evolve into a pretty nice suburban area in the next ten years.

I also think KCK is missing the boat once again on the booming Hispanic population you mentioned. Olathe is becoming the suburb of choice for Hispanics.

But you never know.

[QueSi2Opie]

Nice numbers phxcat! While peeps like GRID seem to think BiState won't work, I'll still hold onto the fact that JOCO is 1 for 1 with BiState thus far.

As far as ShowME, he's only showed me ignorance by constantly bashing Kansas...and I know for a fact he's much smarter than that. It's jus' a bit of rivalry in his blood which hasn't changed since Missouri fought for the Confederacy.

[GRID]

I think it could pass if the leadership out there would let the people decide and get on board, instead they will drag it out and delay projects and continuously tell thier residents why they shouldn't vote for a bistate.

[KCK]

If Johnson Coutny was as racist as some people (no names, but the initials are SHOWME) say, Shawnee Mission North would be about 80% hispanic and 20% black. The fact that the neighborhood is changing, and the White people are staying there belies that idiotic comment. To say that Johnsons County is racist and that the Missouri suburbs are not is equaly idiotic. I hate to say this, but Showme, what have you contributed to this forum? There are others here I have had disagreements with, but all I see out of you is line after line of hatred toward Kansas. That has no value.

Back to the subject- Who knows how Johnson County got started- there is a white flight factor in the development of every suburb. The only thing that would have kept the Northland from being your poster boy for white flight (except your anti-Kansas bigotry) is the river. After the ball got rolling, though, Johnson county just became the place to be. At that point, racism has nothing to do with it.

Facts:

Blue Springs:

93% White
2.9% Black
2.8% Hispanic

Lee's Summit:
93% White
3.5% Black
2% Hispanic

Clay County:
95.2% White
2.7% Black
3.6% Hispanic

Johnson County:
91% White
2.6% Black
4% Hispanic

Olathe (for good measure)
88.6% White
3.7% Black
5.4% Hispanic

Where is the diversity? Stop the crap and get constructive.

Wyandotte County

56% white
28% black
16% hispanic

Plenty of diversity here. But also faces the metro area's only declining population. Most of the migrations away from Wyandotte county are indeed white people. I could understand if people of all races were running away from Wyandotte County in huge groups, but it is primarily white people.

Heres the kicker. Maybe a larger number of white families "CAN" move out. Maybe the black and hispanic families would all move too if they had enough money. It is a known fact that black and hispanic people make less money than white people, and more of those races live in poverty. As everyone knows Johnson County isn't exactly built for low income families. So these low income families might have the desire to leave their crime ridden neighborhood, shitty houses, and failing school district, but they don't have enough cash to do so. It isn't so much white flight as it is middle class flight. There are more americans in the middle class now than ever before, and it might surprise some people here, but most of those people don't want to live in our dirty old cities.

By the way GRID, I agree with you in your comments about KCK. I wish you could have seen Indian Springs the way I saw it when I was a kid. But the days of old are gone so we might as well work to the future. I just hope that the city government doesnt try to annex Bonner or Edwardsville again in a hope of creating its own little Johnson County.

[jcr]

The main reason is classism. One can assume that racism, prejudice, and discrimination are reasons JoCo has grown so much (as well as MO suburbs) and they would be correct. Because racism is implied by classism. There is a wealth divide. Its a known fact that Leawood and OP zone for wealth(inherently zoning by race). When minimum square footage of homes is set at 3,000 sqft then obviously the home will be more expensive than usual. This will only allow rich, mostly white people to move there. The simple fact is that, unfortunately, many whites make much more money that blacks. Lets not forget too, that there are many many poor whites still living in KCK and KCMO, as well as other places.

Its a money divide. OP and Olathe and (gulp) even Blue Spr and LS all fear that they will begin to deteriorate. That is why they are chasing after corporate headquarters in KCMO. These companies support their tax bases. Someone said that a suburbs success is detrimental to the inner city. This is only partially true however, if suburbs like Olathe and OP started recruiting companies from outside either state or even the country, it would result in net growth for the metro. This would be success for both the inner city and the suburb. But this is not the case, one could argue that KC suburbs are acting lazily by recruiting companies already in the metro.

[GRID]

Talking about Johnson County is like talking about calculus to my six year old, you will get nowhere.

[KCK]

Talking about Johnson County is like talking about calculus to my six year old, you will get nowhere.

lol, so true.

I wonder what it would take for kck government to actively pursue corporate business? I mean seriously. KCK took one of the best riverfronts in Kansas City and turned it into an ugly industrial park. I do admit that Fairfax has a lot of jobs, but just imagine midrises or highrises there instead. But kck government is extremely short sighted and thought the industrial age would be around forever.

[QueSi2Opie]

I wish you could have seen Indian Springs the way I saw it when I was a kid.

I use to hang out at Indian Springs as a kid, the Fun Factory, the Food Court, both Cinemas, etc. I watched Action Jackson, RoboCop, Colors, and many other films at the old Springs theaters. The mall began to die around 1990-91.

[KCK]

The last movie I saw at Indian Springs original theaters, was Friday, with Ice Cube and Chris Tucker. The last movies I saw at the State Ave. Drive In was "Flatliners" and "The Fly II". Indian Springs used to be an AMC Theater.