OFFICIAL: Tuilleries Plaza

[nota]

Tuileries already had it's first casualty.  Not a big deal.  Flat Wok in Zona Rosa bit the big one shortly after it opened but all is well.  I never ate at Pacific Grill but people that I know who ate there all seemed to say the same thing.  The food tasted alright but they served teeny tiny little portions at a fairly high price.  Northlanders don't mind paying extra for a good meal but you won't get away with charging 15 bucks for a piece of fish the size of a postage stamp up here.  They got taught the same lesson that Red Star did.  Houlihan's is occupying their old digs and doing well I hear.

I ate there twice and once for a women's luncheon. I didn't ever think the portions were too small. I just didn't like their menu/food. And they used funky dishes to serve in. Meatloaf in a bowl for instance.

[nota]

Here's the latest from the paper.

No tenant list, etc.

I can't help but think that no businesses are going there if there are no others champing at the bit to get in. I'm worried about this place for sure.

[SWFan]

Yep, its not looking too good for Tuilleries.  The I-29/Barry/MO-152 intersection just has more retail destinations that its becoming like a magnet for people.  This latest development is just going to add to that and draw even more people away from all the other retail centers in the Northland (with the exception of maybe Liberty).

I had high hopes for Tuilleries, but it looks like they just started too late.

[Thrillcekr]

I'm not in the least bit worried about it.  They keep adding new buildings to Tuileries.  I seriously doubt they would continue to pour money into the project if they didn't have something cooking.  I also seriously doubt that the bank would loan them the kind of money they need to develop it if they weren't convinced of it either.  This is the same crap I kept hearing from naysayers about Zona Rosa over and over and over again and guess what?  They were all wrong. 

Probably close to 3/4 of the spaces at Tuileries are either already occupied or have a sign hanging over the window that says something is going to be in that space soon so I really can't figure out for the life of me what all the negativity is about.  It's just starting out slowly but then, so did Zona Rosa.  A few spaces filled up and as soon as some crowds started gathering more tenants signed on.  After the additional tenants signed on then even more people started showing up and the whole thing just snowballed.  That's exactly what will happen at Tuileries.  Even metro north hasn't completely sank yet so I think writing off Tuileries so quickly is really jumping the gun.  You all should know better by now.

[nota]

I'm not in the least bit worried about it.  They keep adding new buildings to Tuileries.  I seriously doubt they would continue to pour money into the project if they didn't have something cooking.  I also seriously doubt that the bank would loan them the kind of money they need to develop it if they weren't convinced of it either.  This is the same crap I kept hearing from naysayers about Zona Rosa over and over and over again and guess what?  They were all wrong. 

Probably close to 3/4 of the spaces at Tuileries are either already occupied or have a sign hanging over the window that says something is going to be in that space soon so I really can't figure out for the life of me what all the negativity is about.  It's just starting out slowly but then, so did Zona Rosa.  A few spaces filled up and as soon as some crowds started gathering more tenants signed on.  After the additional tenants signed on then even more people started showing up and the whole thing just snowballed.  That's exactly what will happen at Tuileries.  Even metro north hasn't completely sank yet so I think writing off Tuileries so quickly is really jumping the gun.  You all should know better by now.

NO ONE is writing off Tuileries-at least not me. But it sure is looking bleak. Especially since Briarcliff announced their tenant list. There arent' many "upscale" businesses left for Tuileries to get. There are a couple of colleges setting up shop there. For sure they won't be a draw for shoppers.

As far as comparing Zona-keep in mind that Zona Rosa broke ground BEFORE Tuileries and has now been open at least a year if not more.

As far as "close to 3/4 of the spaces at Tuileries are either already occupied or have a sign hanging over the window that says something is going to be in that space soon"-there are entire buildings built in the first phase that are totally empty there with no signs on them either. Some of the signs that ARE there have been there since 2005.

I took my sister from NC over there last week. Walking around there is like walking in the Sahara-wind and dirt blowing everywhere.

My best wishes go out to them every day when I pass, but I'm becoming more and more worried. If they were such a "destination"-businesses would be clamoring to get in there.

[Slappy the Wang]

I haven't written it off, but think about the financials of the deal.  They have pre-emptively built an amazing amount of very costly infrastructure including acres and acres of pavestone parking and several speculative buildings.  I know they have Bonefish Grill, but one nice restaurant and a sub-glam list of tenants including a tanning salon, beauty mart, quiznos and someday an organic market are completely INCAPABLE of making the note payment required to float even the infrastructure costs.

[nota]

I haven't written it off, but think about the financials of the deal.  They have pre-emptively built an amazing amount of very costly infrastructure including acres and acres of pavestone parking and several speculative buildings.  I know they have Bonefish Grill, but one nice restaurant and a sub-glam list of tenants including a tanning salon, beauty mart, quiznos and someday an organic market are completely INCAPABLE of making the note payment required to float even the infrastructure costs.

That's exactly what I'm thinking about. How can they have all these buildings sitting empty for so long. The interest alone would have to be killing them. Probably their business plan includes some $$$ cash flow until break even, but I'd think that soon they will have to begin to be filling up.

[trailerkid]

That's exactly what I'm thinking about. How can they have all these buildings sitting empty for so long. The interest alone would have to be killing them. Probably their business plan includes some $$$ cash flow until break even, but I'd think that soon they will have to begin to be filling up.

There are only so many tenants to go around in Platte Co. Maybe they should start chasing after regional companies/franchises from other parts of the country to open up shop in KC. Or perhaps they could go after more local restaurants and boutiques like Briarcliff Village did. I'm sure there is money to be made in leasing this space, but they need a different angle.

[Thrillcekr]

As far as comparing Zona-keep in mind that Zona Rosa broke ground BEFORE Tuileries and has now been open at least a year if not more.

That's exactly my point.  It's been open for two years and it started out just like Tuileries did.  Slowly.  It takes time.  Zona Rosa had several empty spaces for quite awhile and it didn't sink even though I can guarantee you that the infrastructure there was a hell of a lot more costly than Tuileries.

As for the types of tenants, it was never intended to be just like Zona Rosa in that regard.  I never once read anywhere that it was gonna be loaded with upscale stores and eateries.  TK is right about what they need to be doing and I think that was their intent to begin with. 

[trailerkid]

As for the types of tenants, it was never intended to be just like Zona Rosa in that regard.  I never once read anywhere that it was gonna be loaded with upscale stores and eateries.  TK is right about what they need to be doing and I think that was their intent to begin with. 

They did have a tenant list at one time that included quite a few upscale shops.

[Thrillcekr]

They did have a tenant list at one time that included quite a few upscale shops.

I've seen their tenant list many times and I never saw anything I would consider really upscale.  For the most part it hasn't changed.  The one that is up now is almost identical to the one that was up a year ago.

[10-7]

That's exactly what I'm thinking about. How can they have all these buildings sitting empty for so long. The interest alone would have to be killing them. Probably their business plan includes some $$$ cash flow until break even, but I'd think that soon they will have to begin to be filling up.

Ok, I don't claim to be a financial whiz, or an accountant or anything, but when I was growing up, my step-father was the GM of a couple of different malls in KC (first Antioch Center when they first covered it, and later on Independence Center).  My understanding of how business space works (and please correct me if I'm wrong..... I'm just trying to remember what I learned 20+ years ago) is that the owners of property can "write off" the loss of income at it's full retail value - therefore making an empty space or building almost as valuable as an occupied space.  This is how someplace like a shopping center can afford to stay open when they only have a 25% occupancy rate - because they get to "write off" all of those empty spaces - thereby making it a tax benefit. 

Further explanation of how it works.....I'm trying to remember a conversation from many years ago, so please forgive me if I'm incorrect, but I asked my step-father one time why they didn't just rent out the empty space to people for anything they could get.  The way he explained it was that if a space normally goes for $15/square foot - then if it's empty - they can "write off" all empty space at $15/square foot.  However, if they were to let someone set up a shop in the space for $3/square foot so that it wasn't empty..... then they are in theory "losing" $12/squre foot in value from that space.  Since many real estate companines hold dozens of hundreds of property bringing in millions of dollars of profit - they rely on this "empty" space to help their tax burden.

So, a place like Tuilleres Plaza may not necessary be "losing" money by having little or no tennants.

[Tosspot]

Taxation policies in this country a tad ridiculous? Perish the thought!

[Thrillcekr]

Ok, I don't claim to be a financial whiz, or an accountant or anything, but when I was growing up, my step-father was the GM of a couple of different malls in KC (first Antioch Center when they first covered it, and later on Independence Center).  My understanding of how business space works (and please correct me if I'm wrong..... I'm just trying to remember what I learned 20+ years ago) is that the owners of property can "write off" the loss of income at it's full retail value - therefore making an empty space or building almost as valuable as an occupied space.  This is how someplace like a shopping center can afford to stay open when they only have a 25% occupancy rate - because they get to "write off" all of those empty spaces - thereby making it a tax benefit. 

Further explanation of how it works.....I'm trying to remember a conversation from many years ago, so please forgive me if I'm incorrect, but I asked my step-father one time why they didn't just rent out the empty space to people for anything they could get.  The way he explained it was that if a space normally goes for $15/square foot - then if it's empty - they can "write off" all empty space at $15/square foot.  However, if they were to let someone set up a shop in the space for $3/square foot so that it wasn't empty..... then they are in theory "losing" $12/squre foot in value from that space.  Since many real estate companines hold dozens of hundreds of property bringing in millions of dollars of profit - they rely on this "empty" space to help their tax burden.

So, a place like Tuilleres Plaza may not necessary be "losing" money by having little or no tennants.

This makes a lot of sense and it's actually the same thing that I heard one time.  Someone was telling me that's what the assclown that runs Metro North has been doing for years.  What I'd like to know is where is the cutoff?  I mean, at what point does the government determine the business is a complete failure and disallow this business owner from filing for more write offs?  In the case of Metro North mall, it has probably been at less than 50% occupancy for a few years now.  I can't see why this would be allowed to go on for much longer.

[nota]

I can agree with this to a point.

However "writing off" only goes so far. They still have to pay out $$$ for taxes and insurance and interest. Of course it would be included in the per square foot lease price but the cash flow would still be hard.

As a simple comparison-try owning 2 houses while you are waiting for one to sell. You get the money back when you sell, but you still have the outflow during the interim.

[Slappy the Wang]

You can write off the loss, but if the loss exceeds your income the amount of taxes is pretty inconsequential.  You can't write off more than you have and the write off has absolutely no bearing on the note you aquired to build the empty structure.

[nota]

You can write off the loss, but if the loss exceeds your income the amount of taxes is pretty inconsequential.  You can't write off more than you have and the write off has absolutely no bearing on the note you aquired to build the empty structure.

Depending on the type of loss, you can carry over some losses if they exceed.

And the write off and the note of course don't go together, but they both affect the money in your pocket. Especially if you are operating on borrowed money.

[Thrillcekr]

You can write off the loss, but if the loss exceeds your income the amount of taxes is pretty inconsequential.  You can't write off more than you have and the write off has absolutely no bearing on the note you aquired to build the empty structure.

Who told you this? Name names damn it!!!!

[nota]

These people just continue to amaze me with their decisions.

They have put the Taco Bell and the Caribou right next to each other right by the main entrance to Tuileries. Since they both have basically only drive up windows IMHO, it's going to be a giant traffic jam. Seems like they would have noticed the 45/Chatham intersection and learned.

Doesn't seem like a very smart decision to me. Of course, Taco Bell and Caribou in this supposedly "upscale" center seems odd too.

Maybe the Caribou will slow down the Starbucks at Hen House though. That would be fun.

[Thrillcekr]

Tuileries is quietly adding to their list of tenants.  Here's a couple I hadn't seen in their directory before:

http://www.emchamas.com/

http://tuileriesplaza.com/rockymountain.html