Metro North Mall

Talk about the ever expanding north side of KC.
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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby flyingember » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:39 pm

two of your ideas have been done.

the northland has a small upscale center at Briarcliff. It's all high end and local

the mixed use center is Zona Rosa. residential, office space and retail

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby im2kull » Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:59 pm

pstokely wrote:
slimwhitman wrote:.....because the reason the first mall failed was??????
Too old? Too brick? Too ....what??
Just because it is new, does not mean it will succeed. (Great Mall, anyone?)
There is a profit center in building this junk all over the country. Just the "building", not the "operating". They make their money and walk away to let others figure out how to keep it profitable. Then the locals are left holding the bag and looking at yet another failed retail experiment.

Even if it succeeds, it will be at the detriment of some other northland shopping centers.


mall had a high rate of vacancy even before Zona Rosa opened due to crappy management



Agree'd. There's a reason that a crappy Independence Center prospered through renovation and innovation, while a fantastic, busy, well-known, Metro North Mall failed. The management ran that mall into the ground, over and over again.

I'd like to see a survey on whether people prefer indoor or outdoor malls. I think we would all be surprised by how many people actually like indoor malls, after the constant media bombardment that indoor malls have taken over the last 7-10 years.

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby FangKC » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:04 am

One of the reasons retail fails in some locations is that there is too much retail in the area. Too many areas are getting zoned for retail, and too much new retail is approved by the City. The other reason is that the City approves retail projects when there isn't enough population density in the area to support it. Zona Rosa gets approved, and Barrywoods and Metro North empty out. Retail is just shifting locations. It's not growing simply by demand and population growth.

If you have too many older retail buildings sitting empty, a City needs to quit zoning for new retail, and approving new retail projects. There needs to be some scarcity created to fill up older buildings before you approve new retail buildings.

Just because a developer comes to you and wants to build new retail on raw land doesn't mean that the City should approve it. Especially on speculation.

Cities do have some power to determine how land is utilized within their city limits.

Looking back, one could argue that the City allowed Metro North to be built too large. Metro North probably contributed to Antioch Mall failing the way it did.

The other thing that needs to be also considered as a contributing factor is that the City has allowed existing neighborhoods in the Northland to be developed with too low a population density. If you look on Google maps, many neighborhoods have large lots and the houses are further apart than in neighborhoods south of the river. When you allow such large areas with too low a density, and neighborhoods too far from each other, it's very hard to maintain and support retail. There just aren't as many people living per square mile, or on each block.

You look at some of the lot sizes in the Northland with one house on them. They are big enough that one easily could get three or four houses on the same lot as was done south of the river.

These large lot sizes create too much unproductive land. They are much larger than the homeowner needs. I would also wager that all that extra space is rarely utilized by the homeowner--except to mow.

Yes, there are those who will argue that people have a right to have huge yards separating them from the neighboring house. The counter-argument is that this type of development pattern contributes to retail failure. It makes it impossible to have any decent mass transit to serve the neighborhood. In the long run, it leads to the City having to maintain a lot of infrastructure to serve a low population density.

Again, a City has a right, responsibility, and obligation to determine how land is utilized, and development is done, within its' city limits through zoning. Poor urban development patterns will create problems for all residents in the future if City leaders don't make the right decisions. It has the authority to control lot sizes through zoning, and ultimately through property taxes. If a homeowner insists on their right to have a huge lot for their home, then probably the City should require they pay a premium for that right in additional property taxes. The reason is that the right to have big lots contributes to low density over large areas, and results in a more costly infrastructure per capita. Low density also mean there are less residents per sq. mile to pay sales taxes, which is another source of City revenue.

When the City allows zoning for too much retail, and then the retail fails, buildings sit empty and the City doesn't collect sales taxes on that land. If the property sits empty for too long, then it's likely the City will have to offer public incentives to renovate, or rebuild the retail zone. The City has the right to control retail development through zoning.

The problems with Northland retail all result from allowing too much retail zoning, and too low population density per sq. mile.

The corrective action the City can take to solve this problem is to limit retail development for now, and focus more on development of higher-density residential--and especially infill in underdeveloped, existing neighborhoods. This can include more multi-resident structures like apartment buildings, and also smaller lot sizes, condos, and townhouses. If residents want more square footage inside their home, fine. They should build up and have two and three-story houses on smaller lots. Allowing more sprawling ranch houses is not the solution.

I would also suggest that developers should be made to return to traditional street grids, and not these winding roads that end in cul-de-sacs with extensive wooded areas surrounding them. This only encourages unconnected neighborhoods.

When I watch City activities on Channel 2, it appears to me that the City Council rubber stamps any development put in front of them without consideration to long-term outcomes, and the problems they may be creating for future generations.
Last edited by FangKC on Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby GRID » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:17 pm

FangKC wrote:One of the reasons retail fails in some locations is that there is too much retail in the area...


You could have stopped right there.

That's really 90% of the problem in metro KC. Again, Malls are not dead. Here in DC they have many huge traditional indoor malls that are constantly 100% occupied even as some retailers close up (best buy, book stores etc), others just backfill. Same with most metro areas.

There are fewer regional malls, sure. But they are not dead and honestly, they will probably seem somewhat of a comeback. Most metros have a good mix of indoor malls, lifestyle centers, new urbanism etc. KC at one time had like 15 malls which is too many, but the area should be able to support a third major indoor mall.

KC's problem is it's simply overbuilt and too much of KC's suburban retail is subsidized.

Let the northland add more rooftops, don't subsidize a new mall, lifestyle center etc (and try not even even allow one to get built without incentives) and there will be demand to rebuild Metro North regardless of the type of mall the redevelopment is. But yea, if the Northland builds a million sq ft of retail in new developments, then then metro north will continue to rot and cause other blight in the area.

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby slimwhitman » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:31 pm

GRID wrote:Let the northland add more rooftops, don't subsidize a new mall, lifestyle center etc (and try not even even allow one to get built without incentives) and there will be demand to rebuild Metro North regardless of the type of mall the redevelopment is.


Great in theory.....if the entire metro was one city and one state. The free market does not drive the retail, each city/state drives the retail by fighting each other to get it in their taxing area before the other city/state out-deals and gets it first.

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby chingon » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:32 am

GRID wrote:Let the northland add more rooftops


That should be a critical priority for the city and the Northland. There would be a lot less trouble with Johnson County if the city just developed the Northland as the primary suburban destination for the city.

Obviously strides are being made, but the amount of available land up there is amazing.

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby KCMax » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:28 am

GRID wrote:
KC's problem is it's simply overbuilt and too much of KC's suburban retail is subsidized.


The suburbs are great, everyone wants to be here because of quality of life, safety, great schools, and low business regulation WHICH IS WHY WE HAVE TO PAY BUSINESSES TO BE HERE.

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby Joe Smith » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:34 pm

What about the property tax effects that the "new Metro North", Zona Rosa + whatever that huge strip to the east of Zona had on the Northland?

Metro North is in Clay County and the NKC School district, while Zona Rosa and that other huge strip mall are in Platte County and the Park Hill School district.

How does all those stores moving to Platte County affect the percentage of property taxes paid to Clay County and the rates of taxation paid by folks living in Clay County? Or is all that offset by the new strips on 152 & I-35?

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby pstokely » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:34 pm

Joe Smith wrote:What about the property tax effects that the "new Metro North", Zona Rosa + whatever that huge strip to the east of Zona had on the Northland?

Metro North is in Clay County and the NKC School district, while Zona Rosa and that other huge strip mall are in Platte County and the Park Hill School district.

How does all those stores moving to Platte County affect the percentage of property taxes paid to Clay County and the rates of taxation paid by folks living in Clay County? Or is all that offset by the new strips on 152 & I-35?


I think Metro North and maybe Zona Rosa are actually in the Platte County school district

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby longviewmo » Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:22 pm

Weird. Three sides of Metro North are in NKC, but the mall itself is in the Platte County district. Zona Rosa is Park Hill.

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby pstokely » Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:56 pm

longviewmo wrote:Weird. Three sides of Metro North are in NKC, but the mall itself is in the Platte County district. Zona Rosa is Park Hill.


If this new mall is actually built, what district will it be in?

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby longviewmo » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:17 am

Here's the boundary.

Image

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby Joe Smith » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:10 pm

pstokely wrote:
Joe Smith wrote:What about the property tax effects that the "new Metro North", Zona Rosa + whatever that huge strip to the east of Zona had on the Northland?

Metro North is in Clay County and the NKC School district, while Zona Rosa and that other huge strip mall are in Platte County and the Park Hill School district.

How does all those stores moving to Platte County affect the percentage of property taxes paid to Clay County and the rates of taxation paid by folks living in Clay County? Or is all that offset by the new strips on 152 & I-35?


I think Metro North and maybe Zona Rosa are actually in the Platte County school district


Platte County doesn't cross 169. Their Eastern boundary is around Waukomis, which is about a mile west of 169.

Did find out that Platte County has about 9 schools, with 1 high school and 1 junior high, but the whole district is only 92% funded and that they are currently going through a Budget cutting process. Maybe they're getting screwed by Zona too. Did the city and the county give Zona some huge tax breaks?

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby KCtonic » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:38 pm

Joe Smith wrote:
pstokely wrote:
Joe Smith wrote:What about the property tax effects that the "new Metro North", Zona Rosa + whatever that huge strip to the east of Zona had on the Northland?

Metro North is in Clay County and the NKC School district, while Zona Rosa and that other huge strip mall are in Platte County and the Park Hill School district.

How does all those stores moving to Platte County affect the percentage of property taxes paid to Clay County and the rates of taxation paid by folks living in Clay County? Or is all that offset by the new strips on 152 & I-35?


I think Metro North and maybe Zona Rosa are actually in the Platte County school district


Platte County doesn't cross 169. Their Eastern boundary is around Waukomis, which is about a mile west of 169.

Did find out that Platte County has about 9 schools, with 1 high school and 1 junior high, but the whole district is only 92% funded and that they are currently going through a Budget cutting process. Maybe they're getting screwed by Zona too. Did the city and the county give Zona some huge tax breaks?

Zona Rosa is in the Park Hill School district which is also in Platte County. Not sure about Metro North, but I believe it is in North Kansas City school district - in Clay County.

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby FangKC » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:15 pm

Just a side note, there is a small section of Jackson County that is north of the River--the area where highways 291 and 210 intersect.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=39.185167,-94.389124&spn=0.043642,0.097847&t=h&z=14

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:03 am

Yep, the old river channel and Liberty Bend.

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby AllThingsKC » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:57 am

longviewmo wrote:Here's the boundary.

Image


Actually, 100% of this photo is in Clay County. The Clay/Platte border is along Platte Purchase Road, which isn't shown in this picture.

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby chingon » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:03 am

Political boundaries that follow old river channels that no longer line up with the riverway is actually pretty common. There is at least one part of Missouri (Browning Lake, and old oxbow, and Rosencrantz airport))that is west of the Missouri River across from St Joseph, and in the Southeast corner of the state the actual state lines kind of dance around the current Mississippi river channel and follow older lines. There is a even a section of Kentucky directly across from New Madrid that is totally surrounded by MO on 3 sides and Tennessee on the other. None of it even shares a border with the rest of Kentucky.

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby flyingember » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:20 am

FangKC wrote:Just a side note, there is a small section of Jackson County that is north of the River--the area where highways 291 and 210 intersect.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=39.185167,-94.389124&spn=0.043642,0.097847&t=h&z=14


there's two places the county is north of the MO River and two where Clay County goes south of it

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Re: Metro North Mall

Postby flyingember » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:24 am

AllThingsKC wrote:
longviewmo wrote:Here's the boundary.

Image


Actually, 100% of this photo is in Clay County. The Clay/Platte border is along Platte Purchase Road, which isn't shown in this picture.


this is a school district map, and Platte County RIII does go into Clay County in a couple of places

http://marc.org/gis/assets/catalog_pdfs ... tricts.jpg


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