Page 32 of 34

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:29 pm
by Highlander
GRID wrote:
shinatoo wrote:I saw a map the other day of retail mortgage delinquency by metro area for the US. Kansas City was the only major metro with over 25% of its retail mortgages in default or delinquent. Has to be because we overbuilt. We overbuilt because there is no density.
Nah, metro KC is no less dense than most other metros.

KC's retail is extremely overbuilt for one reason. Excessive incentives. Almost all of KC's retail is subsidized. Even retail in affluent southernn and western JoCo is subsidized. All the new stuff in Blue Springs and Lee's Summit. Village West. Olathe. The Northland is probably subsidized the least, but it still is and it's still overbuilt. By least I mean there are some Tifs, but the Northland doesn't have the super incentives like supertiff/star bond stuff which is basically building retail with tax money.

Funny thing is. People are still completely clueless. Projects like Bluehawk in Overland Park are still getting massive subsidies today to build brand new retail that is totally not needed.

I have never seen a metro area subsidize retail at the rate that KC does, especially for brand new development in already overbuilt affluent suburbs. It's absolutly nuts.

Combine eCommerce with the fact that metro KC is way overbuilt and everything is subsidized and Metro KC is on the verge of mass suburban retail blight.
I've never understood incentives for greenfield retail. It's the dumbest use of incentives possible. There is either a market or there isn't , using incentives is not going to change that, it doesn't make the market larger and we end up collectively robbing Peter to pay Paul which is exactly what is happening. The only place incentives make any sense for retail is in an urban setting where the expense of parking makes it unlikely that developers are willing to pull the trigger and urban dwellers end up having to drive to the burbs for shopping.

The other problems with using incentives in greenfield is that it's really poor use of a limited resource (incentives are a limited resource - or at least should be). The jobs created are generally poor paying, and for most KC burbs and don't really enhance the community, and the money used to create the incentives are no longer available for more pressing matter or even incentives that are more pressing (like creating better paying jobs outside of the local service industry).

Still, I am very surprised Zona Rosa is having financial issues. After the demise of Metro North, what else is there in the Northland? What's creating the competition that's impacting Zona Rosa? I was up there a few months ago, not much else in the Northland other than a few big box stores.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:52 pm
by flyingember
Highlander wrote:
Still, I am very surprised Zona Rosa is having financial issues. After the demise of Metro North, what else is there in the Northland? What's creating the competition that's impacting Zona Rosa? I was up there a few months ago, not much else in the Northland other than a few big box stores.
In the 90s we used to travel from Liberty to Metro North or Independence Center

There’s a lot of overlap, but these are all post mid 90s retail projects in the northland.

Liberty Triangle
Shoal Creek
Burlington Creek
N Oak Village
Small center at 291 and i35
Along N Oak at 96th
Tiffany Springs and Ambassador
Briarcliff Village
Antioch Center redeveloped
Liberty Commons redeveloped
Hy-Vee opened on 64th
Barry Rd at 169 x2 (neither finished their build)
Costco

Retail at least doubled while the population didn’t. Notice how places as far as Independence lost business to these new areas

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:25 pm
by mgsports
Twin Creeks,Main Event and so on.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:18 pm
by flyingember
mgsports wrote:Twin Creeks,Main Event and so on.
Twin Creeks hasn’t started building
South of AMC is currently unfinished , so I didn’t count it any more than I counted 2-3 new businesss by themselves opening up

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:09 am
by w00lyb00ger
For quite a few of the establishments that have left Zona Rosa the volume of business wasn’t the issue. Unreasonable lease hikes and other squabbles with the management led to their exit. At least according to the folks I’ve talked to. Of course several retailers and restaurants have been closing stores nationwide so that’s led to some vacancies as well.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:04 am
by kcjak
Anyone know the occupancy level of the apartments? Seems like a good way to get additional spending in the district is to build more apartments. Or a couple of hotels.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:37 am
by mgsports
Costco is in Twin Creeks. Sam's Club.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:40 am
by flyingember
mgsports wrote:Costco is in Twin Creeks. Sam's Club.
This is twin Creeks

Costco is outside of Twin Creeks

http://kcmo.gov/wp-content/uploads/2016 ... tePlan.pdf

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:04 pm
by mgsports

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:24 am
by flyingember
This isn't the first time a developer uses a name that makes no sense geographically.

They can call it Twin Creeks all they want and it's still not inside the Twin Creeks watershed

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:41 pm
by KCPowercat
Can we just limit these two to this thread? Seems best for all.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:17 am
by flyingember
Even their website shows their shrinking occupancy.

https://www.zonarosa.com/about-us/
Zona Rosa is the area’s PREMIER FASHION AND DINING DESTINATION, with over 100 merchants and restaurants
67 merchants
23 restaurants

Does not add up to greater than 100

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:18 pm
by DaveKCMO
Changes!

https://www.kansascity.com/news/busines ... 23395.html
Zona Rosa Town Center will demolish some storefronts to make way for a new outdoor green space as the first part of a major redevelopment effort to improve the outdoor shopping center in Kansas City’s Northland.

Managers of the outdoor shopping center this week announced a multi-million-dollar redevelopment of the mall that will begin this fall and conclude by spring 2021. The mall, which currently has dozens of vacancies, will demolish the building just south of the Dillard’s department store to make way for a new green space called North Park.

“It’s obvious that this alone is not going to fix Zona Rosa,” said Scott Zigler, the mall’s general manager. “This is a major first step of the kinds of things we will be doing going forward.”

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:47 am
by flyingember
I don't think they ever had full occupancy on the northern half of the center.

Went through it in maybe May and it was like downtown in 2000, tons of empty space.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:39 pm
by im2kull
flyingember wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:47 am I don't think they ever had full occupancy on the northern half of the center.

Went through it in maybe May and it was like downtown in 2000, tons of empty space.
That's what happens when you build an isolated, suburban shopping district in a field bounded by highway. Zona Rosa was set up for failure as anything more than simply a shopping center from the beginning. Nobody's going to frequent the aforementioned as a "destination", and that's not going to change with the addition of a park and some green space. This place is what it is. A shopping center. Nothing more. Period.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:23 pm
by flyingember
im2kull wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:39 pm This place is what it is. A shopping center. Nothing more. Period.
There's a bunch of offices and residential too. A for-profit college HQ was located in it.

Their mix was off, if they had built 6 story buildings with residential over the retail it would have had a lot more customers.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:39 pm
by FangKC
flyingember is correct. The fatal flaw in this development was not including more residential above the store buildings, and around the edges. The location was a bad choice for such a retail endeavor since it's limited in how you can add residential around it, and connections to neighborhoods.

This parcel would have been better used for a couple of car dealerships.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:48 pm
by horizons82
It also doesn’t help that the city completely undermined this type of development by approving traditional suburban retail just across the highway and single family homes right next door.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:30 am
by Chris Stritzel
Well... I do wish them luck on this endeavor. It will be a bit tough repositioning everything to make this a "destination" but I hope it works for them. The last thing anyone would want is a vacant "lifestyle center".

I've been to Zona Rosa several times and while I find it pretty generic, it seems to have the foundations to build something truly great. Connectivity is an issue though, and that has been pointed out. There's plenty of parking, so remove some of the lots and build apartments. For more apartments/condos within the development, consolidate all the vacant retail spaces together. So, negotiate to move tenants to other vacant spaces surrounded by occupied spaces. Once you get a block of vacant space, demolish and build apartments/condos.

This could all work, it's just trying to find the formula to get it to work.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:37 pm
by flyingember
Chris Stritzel wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:30 am
This could all work, it's just trying to find the formula to get it to work.
Replacement with something new thats not retail

It ended up replacing Metro North and that still isn’t anything new 15 years after Zona Rosa opened.

It’s already been replaced with other shopping centers in the area.

The points on the city and county screwing things up is very real.