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Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:14 pm
by mistervinix
empires228 wrote:
mgsports wrote:About Oak Park Mall Banana Republic and Body Shop closing according to Shawnee Mission Post story today and in it Nordstroms saying might relocate to Plaza or so on like maybe former Sears in OP or even former Kmarts in Johnson County,Village West,Corbin Park,135th street and Greenwood,Olathe Gateway phase 2,former Great Mall of Plains,Shawnee. Stores that could replace Oak Park Mall space stores not in area yet like Yonkers,Boston Store,Meijer,Shopko or so on and if Rack moves with it Fresh Thyme Market or Here Today or Dunham Sports or so on.

Also have other Commercial development at Twin Creeks,Edegewood Farms and so on. Also Falls at Crackernack Creek and so on in Independence have spaces and land to fill so does like Lees Summit Place,Plaza Speedway Shops,Belton Gateway,so on in Johnson County and so on.
There is NO chance of Nordstrom relocating to the plaza. When Saks left, they cited their main reason for leaving as their store being too small with no room for expansion. The largest building on the Plaza is the old Sears store, and they're not going to boot the theater, Urban Outfitters, and the others out just for Nordstrom. The remaining portion of the old Halls store isn't large enough by far, the former Saks isn't large enough by far, and the old Macy's isn't large enough by far.
Well...

https://www.kshb.com/money/business-new ... club-plaza

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:27 pm
by SWFan
dnweava wrote:
SWFan wrote:
flyingember wrote:Saw yesterday Zona Rosa is 59% vacant.

Really good example to prove to cities to stop approving more retail before the supporting residential is built.
How do you get people to move to the Northland when all the high paying jobs in KC are all within a couple miles of I-435 & I-35 in JoCo? I expect trying to attract retail was one way since they haven't been able to successfully add much in terms of higher paying jobs north of the river.

I've lived in the Northland for 17 years now, but work in Corporate Woods. I've been close to sucking it up and moving to JoCo.
Northland is closer to downtown than the other suburbam areas. I work downtown and the northland is the only suburban area I even considered when looking for a house.
Yep, which is why I would have loved to have found a job downtown, but in three years none appeared and I had to move on.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:30 pm
by SWFan
Having lost Saks and Halls that is a big win for the Plaza.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:02 pm
by mgsports
But it is moving know.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:29 am
by w00lyb00ger
SWFan wrote:
flyingember wrote:Saw yesterday Zona Rosa is 59% vacant.

Really good example to prove to cities to stop approving more retail before the supporting residential is built.
How do you get people to move to the Northland when all the high paying jobs in KC are all within a couple miles of I-435 & I-35 in JoCo? I expect trying to attract retail was one way since they haven't been able to successfully add much in terms of higher paying jobs north of the river.

I've lived in the Northland for 17 years now, but work in Corporate Woods. I've been close to sucking it up and moving to JoCo.
Cerner and Ford are two of the largest employers in the region and also offer some of the highest paying jobs. Not to mention most of the suppliers for Ford also pay well. Airport has a decent amount of good jobs and continues to add as the metro grows. Bayer is another one that pays well above the metro average that’s in the northland. Then you have General Motors, Kellogg, Certainteed and several other high paying employers down in the Fairfax district that are just on the other side of the river. Very short commute for anyone living up north.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:18 am
by flyingember
w00lyb00ger wrote: Bayer is another one that pays well above the metro average that’s in the northland
Bayer is south of the river

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:50 pm
by w00lyb00ger
flyingember wrote:
w00lyb00ger wrote: Bayer is another one that pays well above the metro average that’s in the northland
Bayer is south of the river
Close enough. A couple blocks south. Still only a few minutes drive for most northlanders.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:32 pm
by kboish
w00lyb00ger wrote:
flyingember wrote:
w00lyb00ger wrote: Bayer is another one that pays well above the metro average that’s in the northland
Bayer is south of the river
Close enough. A couple blocks south. Still only a few minutes drive for most northlanders.
Kind of like downtown

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:17 pm
by flyingember
kboish wrote:
w00lyb00ger wrote:
flyingember wrote:
Bayer is south of the river
Close enough. A couple blocks south. Still only a few minutes drive for most northlanders.
Kind of like downtown
If you figure from just north of the river Bayer is 3x farther away from the northland than downtown is. Bayer is about 25 blocks south of the river, downtown starts at the river.

By this standard all of downtown is north of the river. Close enough.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:19 pm
by w00lyb00ger
flyingember wrote:
kboish wrote:
w00lyb00ger wrote: Close enough. A couple blocks south. Still only a few minutes drive for most northlanders.
Kind of like downtown
If you figure from just north of the river Bayer is 3x farther away from the northland than downtown is. Bayer is about 25 blocks south of the river, downtown starts at the river.

By this standard all of downtown is north of the river. Close enough.
No, it isn’t even close to being 25 blocks. Located at 8400 Hawthorne Rd.
You can literally walk from the north side of the facility to the river in less than five minutes.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/8400+ ... 916b?hl=en

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:17 pm
by SWFan
w00lyb00ger wrote:
SWFan wrote:
flyingember wrote:Saw yesterday Zona Rosa is 59% vacant.

Really good example to prove to cities to stop approving more retail before the supporting residential is built.
How do you get people to move to the Northland when all the high paying jobs in KC are all within a couple miles of I-435 & I-35 in JoCo? I expect trying to attract retail was one way since they haven't been able to successfully add much in terms of higher paying jobs north of the river.

I've lived in the Northland for 17 years now, but work in Corporate Woods. I've been close to sucking it up and moving to JoCo.
Cerner and Ford are two of the largest employers in the region and also offer some of the highest paying jobs. Not to mention most of the suppliers for Ford also pay well. Airport has a decent amount of good jobs and continues to add as the metro grows. Bayer is another one that pays well above the metro average that’s in the northland. Then you have General Motors, Kellogg, Certainteed and several other high paying employers down in the Fairfax district that are just on the other side of the river. Very short commute for anyone living up north.
In the 17 years I've lived in the Northland I've yet to see a high paying accounting job at any of the employers you mentioned. Almost all the jobs I've ever seen at those facilities have been for laborers or accounting clerks. If there are even any high-end accounting jobs at those locations, they must be bringing them in from their corporate headquarters.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:20 pm
by SWFan
flyingember wrote:
kboish wrote:
w00lyb00ger wrote: Close enough. A couple blocks south. Still only a few minutes drive for most northlanders.
Kind of like downtown
If you figure from just north of the river Bayer is 3x farther away from the northland than downtown is. Bayer is about 25 blocks south of the river, downtown starts at the river.

By this standard all of downtown is north of the river. Close enough.
I'd take a job at Bayer. Draw a line from I-70/I-435 east of downtown to I-70/I-635 on the other side, then box it in going north as far as Smithville. So that would fit with Bayer and anything downtown as well.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:36 am
by FangKC
Zona Rosa in default on mortgage; Platte County residents may be on the hook
In another troubling sign for bricks-and-mortar retail, Zona Rosa, the outdoor shopping district that was dubbed as the Country Club Plaza of the Northland when it opened in 2004, has defaulted on its mortgage.

And due to a financial subsidy deal structured in 2007, Platte County taxpayers may be on the hook to cover debt shortfalls later this year.

Investors who bought publicly issued bonds on Zona Rosa's expansion in 2007 were informed by bond trustee UMB Bank in a letter last month that after spending down a previous letter of credit late last year Zona Rosa Development LLC failed to obtain a new $500,000 letter of credit.

...
http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 35859.html

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:23 am
by shinatoo
I saw a map the other day of retail mortgage delinquency by metro area for the US. Kansas City was the only major metro with over 25% of its retail mortgages in default or delinquent. Has to be because we overbuilt. We overbuilt because there is no density.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:16 pm
by GRID
shinatoo wrote:I saw a map the other day of retail mortgage delinquency by metro area for the US. Kansas City was the only major metro with over 25% of its retail mortgages in default or delinquent. Has to be because we overbuilt. We overbuilt because there is no density.
Nah, metro KC is no less dense than most other metros.

KC's retail is extremely overbuilt for one reason. Excessive incentives. Almost all of KC's retail is subsidized. Even retail in affluent southernn and western JoCo is subsidized. All the new stuff in Blue Springs and Lee's Summit. Village West. Olathe. The Northland is probably subsidized the least, but it still is and it's still overbuilt. By least I mean there are some Tifs, but the Northland doesn't have the super incentives like supertiff/star bond stuff which is basically building retail with tax money.

Funny thing is. People are still completely clueless. Projects like Bluehawk in Overland Park are still getting massive subsidies today to build brand new retail that is totally not needed.

I have never seen a metro area subsidize retail at the rate that KC does, especially for brand new development in already overbuilt affluent suburbs. It's absolutly nuts.

Combine eCommerce with the fact that metro KC is way overbuilt and everything is subsidized and Metro KC is on the verge of mass suburban retail blight.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:52 pm
by flyingember
GRID wrote:
Funny thing is. People are still completely clueless. Projects like Bluehawk in Overland Park are still getting massive subsidies today to build brand new retail that is totally not needed.
It’s not unique, but there’s a series of projects that look really bad in OP

Downtown OP retail came first
Then the malls at 95th and Metcalf
Replaced with retail to 103rd
And more along 119th
And more along 135th
And now the city is working on incentives and projects to “fix” the areas their incentives blighted. It’s as if someone thinks that there’s demand for the areas despite businesses not wanting to locate there.

so I find it ironic that Zona Rosa took from surrounding areas and the county didn’t plan for this to be a possibility, It didn’t back loans based on occupancy.

I would be intrigued in a retail capacity heat map showing from over covered to under covered across the metro. I bet there’s way less profit in the richer parts of town than people think.

Edit: remove weird extra text

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:13 pm
by ztonyg
Claires at Zona Rosa made their initial store closing list.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:48 am
by empires228
flyingember wrote:
GRID wrote:
Funny thing is. People are still completely clueless. Projects like Bluehawk in Overland Park are still getting massive subsidies today to build brand new retail that is totally not needed.
It’s not unique, but there’s a series of projects that look really bad in OP

Downtown OP retail came first
Then the malls at 95th and Metcalf
Replaced with retail to 103rd
And more along 119th
And more along 135th
And now the city is working on incentives and projects to “fix” the areas their incentives blighted. It’s as if someone thinks that there’s demand for the areas despite businesses not wanting to locate there.

so I find it ironic that Zona Rosa took from surrounding areas and the county didn’t plan for this to be a possibility, It didn’t back loans based on occupancy.

I would be intrigued in a retail capacity heat map showing from over covered to under covered across the metro. I bet there’s way less profit in the richer parts of town than people think.

Edit: remove weird extra text
119th is the hot spot for JoCo. That's why stores have left Oak Park Mall and The Plaza for TCP and why the TCP Macy's is the only top 200 Macy's in the metro.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:29 pm
by Highlander
GRID wrote:
shinatoo wrote:I saw a map the other day of retail mortgage delinquency by metro area for the US. Kansas City was the only major metro with over 25% of its retail mortgages in default or delinquent. Has to be because we overbuilt. We overbuilt because there is no density.
Nah, metro KC is no less dense than most other metros.

KC's retail is extremely overbuilt for one reason. Excessive incentives. Almost all of KC's retail is subsidized. Even retail in affluent southernn and western JoCo is subsidized. All the new stuff in Blue Springs and Lee's Summit. Village West. Olathe. The Northland is probably subsidized the least, but it still is and it's still overbuilt. By least I mean there are some Tifs, but the Northland doesn't have the super incentives like supertiff/star bond stuff which is basically building retail with tax money.

Funny thing is. People are still completely clueless. Projects like Bluehawk in Overland Park are still getting massive subsidies today to build brand new retail that is totally not needed.

I have never seen a metro area subsidize retail at the rate that KC does, especially for brand new development in already overbuilt affluent suburbs. It's absolutly nuts.

Combine eCommerce with the fact that metro KC is way overbuilt and everything is subsidized and Metro KC is on the verge of mass suburban retail blight.
I've never understood incentives for greenfield retail. It's the dumbest use of incentives possible. There is either a market or there isn't , using incentives is not going to change that, it doesn't make the market larger and we end up collectively robbing Peter to pay Paul which is exactly what is happening. The only place incentives make any sense for retail is in an urban setting where the expense of parking makes it unlikely that developers are willing to pull the trigger and urban dwellers end up having to drive to the burbs for shopping.

The other problems with using incentives in greenfield is that it's really poor use of a limited resource (incentives are a limited resource - or at least should be). The jobs created are generally poor paying, and for most KC burbs and don't really enhance the community, and the money used to create the incentives are no longer available for more pressing matter or even incentives that are more pressing (like creating better paying jobs outside of the local service industry).

Still, I am very surprised Zona Rosa is having financial issues. After the demise of Metro North, what else is there in the Northland? What's creating the competition that's impacting Zona Rosa? I was up there a few months ago, not much else in the Northland other than a few big box stores.

Re: OFFICIAL: Zona Rosa (tenants & phase II)

Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:52 pm
by flyingember
Highlander wrote:
Still, I am very surprised Zona Rosa is having financial issues. After the demise of Metro North, what else is there in the Northland? What's creating the competition that's impacting Zona Rosa? I was up there a few months ago, not much else in the Northland other than a few big box stores.
In the 90s we used to travel from Liberty to Metro North or Independence Center

There’s a lot of overlap, but these are all post mid 90s retail projects in the northland.

Liberty Triangle
Shoal Creek
Burlington Creek
N Oak Village
Small center at 291 and i35
Along N Oak at 96th
Tiffany Springs and Ambassador
Briarcliff Village
Antioch Center redeveloped
Liberty Commons redeveloped
Hy-Vee opened on 64th
Barry Rd at 169 x2 (neither finished their build)
Costco

Retail at least doubled while the population didn’t. Notice how places as far as Independence lost business to these new areas