Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

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voltopt
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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby voltopt » Fri May 26, 2006 1:24 pm

its the same old story - middle class leaves, then after awhile flees, the city doesn't invest in the neighborhood, and things start to fall apart.  real estate agents start directing people in and out, redlining the area as the "next east side" (i've heard some say this) and the government starts providing housing subsidies because its already ruined most of kansas city and needs a new area to tear up.  most people who live there give up and get out (probably for lee's summit, which is a shame because it leave the entire area up and down bannister east of james a reed & raytown undeveloped as people leapfrog virgin land in the Hickman Mills district for the relative safety of Lee's Summit, thus creating a nice buffer)
either way - its a combination.
if the city would just invest in its neighborhoods it wouldn't be so severe, the change that is.
"I never quarrel, sir; but I do fight, sir; and when I fight, sir, a funeral follows, sir."   -senator thomas hart benton

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby tjokskalle » Sat May 27, 2006 7:05 am

KCrules wrote:In 1993 right before I joined the Navy, we used to go over there all the time to eat and shop at the mall. Within a matter of 5 years the whole area shit the bed. You can blame it on sec8 or crime, but it starts with the people and stops with the people. Sugar coating the subject is nice for the forum, but we all know why the area collapsed.
   


  well said KCrules.I had to laugh at your phrase"shit the bed"My older brother was in the Navy and he uses this same term!LOL!
the rubber on the wheel..is quicker than the rubber on the heel.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Thu May 25, 2017 12:49 am

Came across this article. Bannister Mall is mentioned just because of Cerner going there now.
http://kcur.org/post/heres-how-hickman- ... y#stream/0
"Starting in the 1990s, Hickman Mills became a forgotten community. Middle-income families moved out. Blight moved in. Drive through the neighborhoods today and the symbols of disinvestment are everywhere – gutters falling off houses, trash in yards, payday loan shops where stores used to be.
“It’s just strictly rental there now and nobody takes care of the yards. Nobody trims the trees. Nobody looks out for the other person,” says Jerry Porterfield, a longtime landlord in the area.
Porterfield mostly rents Section 8 properties, which low-income families get a federal subsidy to rent. Though he has a reputation as a good property owner – quick to make repairs and fair with tenants – he’s been selling off his houses in south Kansas City neighborhoods like Ruskin.
“I wish I didn’t have anything there now,” he says.
Others, though, see opportunity in the low-slung houses – but too often of the wrong kind. Out-of-town investors purchase properties by the bundle.
“They can buy ’em and just flip ’em, basically,” says Barb Wunsch, coordinator of enrollment and residency for the Hickman Mills School District. “We have a lot of property management companies out here. Some of them are from out of state, and it’s very difficult to get them to do anything for our families.”
...
"People look to Cerner as the great hope for bringing change to the Hickman Mills area, although no one seems quite sure how that will work.
“I have 20 homes in the area. I’m just very hopeful that when Cerner comes in they’ll bring much needed money and energy and people that can have an impact,” says Larry Hedenkamp, who renovates properties and either rents them out or sells them to investors."

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby AlbertHammond » Thu May 25, 2017 12:23 pm

aknowledgeableperson wrote:http://kcur.org/post/heres-how-hickman-mills-became-forgotten-community-kansas-city#stream/0
."


Everyone I knew in the '90s that owned and resided in Hickman Mills homes have moved out. They cited problems with lousy neighbor home maintenance and problem neighbors. I still know a few people that own rental houses there and they are wanting to get out and put there money in other neighborhoods. They perceive low opportunity for quality return on investment.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby AlbertHammond » Thu May 25, 2017 12:23 pm

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Last edited by AlbertHammond on Thu May 25, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby brewcrew1000 » Thu May 25, 2017 1:08 pm

You know that area would probably be much much worse if the IHOP cult didn't start in the South KC/Grandview area. I think the founders wife is a realtor and I know a lot of IHOP members that move here usually first settle in South KC/Grandview

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby grovester » Thu May 25, 2017 2:34 pm

Pretty bad when the proximity of a cult improves your demographics!

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby nomadcowatbk » Fri May 26, 2017 7:35 pm

grovester wrote:Pretty bad when the proximity of a cult improves your demographics!


but I doubt they'll send their kids to Hickman Mills schools

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby atticus23 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:24 pm

Warford IS THE PREMIER of the district (actually not a terrible school). Smith Hale Middle, where I work, is pretty rough. I'll have my third all new administration team in as many years. From the school stand point, IMO, with out a lack of cohesiveness in our school buildings many of the problems will perpetuate as building admins make no real connection w/ the neighborhoods they serve.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby nomadcowatbk » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:36 pm

atticus23 wrote:Warford IS THE PREMIER of the district (actually not a terrible school). Smith Hale Middle, where I work, is pretty rough. I'll have my third all new administration team in as many years. From the school stand point, IMO, with out a lack of cohesiveness in our school buildings many of the problems will perpetuate as building admins make no real connection w/ the neighborhoods they serve.


I guess they don't have a requirement for administrators to live in the district like Independence does

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:40 am

At one time, much like parts of the KCMOSD, the schools suffered from students having to change schools because of the high rate of moving with the rental housing.
Sante Fe use to be the #1 school, that is 35 or so years ago.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby atticus23 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:58 pm

Correct. There is no admin requirement like in Independence.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby nomadcowatbk » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:37 am

aknowledgeableperson wrote:At one time, much like parts of the KCMOSD, the schools suffered from students having to change schools because of the high rate of moving with the rental housing.
Sante Fe use to be the #1 school, that is 35 or so years ago.


http://kcur.org/post/heres-how-hickman- ... y#stream/0
http://kcur.org/post/years-end-hickman- ... s#stream/0

Hickman Mills still has an issue with transience, so do the Center, Grandview, and Raytown districts, many students will change schools several times during the school year, the difference maker might be stable leadership instead of revolving door leadership, I don't really see those highly educated Cerner employees gentrifying Ruskin, the campus is close enough to the Lees Summit and Blue Valley districts

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby Highlander » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:22 pm

nomadcowatbk wrote:
aknowledgeableperson wrote:At one time, much like parts of the KCMOSD, the schools suffered from students having to change schools because of the high rate of moving with the rental housing.
Sante Fe use to be the #1 school, that is 35 or so years ago.


http://kcur.org/post/heres-how-hickman- ... y#stream/0
http://kcur.org/post/years-end-hickman- ... s#stream/0

I don't really see those highly educated Cerner employees gentrifying Ruskin, the campus is close enough to the Lees Summit and Blue Valley districts


The entire project was not really thought through very well. I guess Cerner gets an office on the cheaper suburban landscape that is accessible to most of the metro but that's going to be the extent of it. First and foremost, as you state, the campus is just too accessible to Lees Summit and South Johnson County and secondly, I'm not sure housing stock really worth gentrifying exists in the Hickman - Ruskin area. Very uneven, dated, small, surprisingly low density (parts of the Hickman area have some decent stock, not so much with Ruskin). It also won't help that one of the few private high schools in that area just closed its doors. But even with Cerner, there is no real critical mass in the area, and Cerner is not going to change the area on it's own. That's not how areas get gentrified.

Worst of all, the location of the complex and lack of suitable nearby housing will most likely have the very unintended consequence of pushing people out of KCMO into the burbs already mentioned.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:21 am

I hear reports that housing prices are climbing in the Red Bridge area due to Cerner. Know of one house in particular that has increased over $100,000 in less than 3 years and many houses have been improved and updated for sale in a longer period of time. I'm sure Burns and McDonnell is also helping that area. And I believe people underestimate much of the housing stock in the area in the HMSD. True Robandee and Ruskin Heights housing stock isn't ideal but there is better housing stock on both sides of Raytown Road and on the west side of the highway. And for those who want apartments some nearby complexes have already been cleaned up and upgraded.
Granted, the change will not happen overnight but I am sure people will be noticing a gradual change over the next 5 to 7 years, especially as additional buildings are built.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby Highlander » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:30 pm

aknowledgeableperson wrote:I hear reports that housing prices are climbing in the Red Bridge area due to Cerner. Know of one house in particular that has increased over $100,000 in less than 3 years and many houses have been improved and updated for sale in a longer period of time. I'm sure Burns and McDonnell is also helping that area. And I believe people underestimate much of the housing stock in the area in the HMSD. True Robandee and Ruskin Heights housing stock isn't ideal but there is better housing stock on both sides of Raytown Road and on the west side of the highway. And for those who want apartments some nearby complexes have already been cleaned up and upgraded.
Granted, the change will not happen overnight but I am sure people will be noticing a gradual change over the next 5 to 7 years, especially as additional buildings are built.


I don't doubt that real estate may be on the rise in Red Bridge but I am skeptical as to Cerner's role. My sister who is a pretty in the know real estate agent in KC tells me houses aren't staying on the market - anything desirable sells practically immediately. I suspect that phenomena has a lot more to do with Red Bridge price increases than Cerner. I don't think all that many people relocate with job changes within KC, it's just too easy of a commute. Maybe if I lived in Liberty and got a job in Olathe, I would relocate but even that drive would be less than the relatively "easy" commute I had in Houston. That is one of the big reasons I don't see much of net gain for Hickman or Ruskin from Cerner, people generally do not need to move as their job location changes in KC.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby nomadcowatbk » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:53 am

Highlander wrote:
aknowledgeableperson wrote:I hear reports that housing prices are climbing in the Red Bridge area due to Cerner. Know of one house in particular that has increased over $100,000 in less than 3 years and many houses have been improved and updated for sale in a longer period of time. I'm sure Burns and McDonnell is also helping that area. And I believe people underestimate much of the housing stock in the area in the HMSD. True Robandee and Ruskin Heights housing stock isn't ideal but there is better housing stock on both sides of Raytown Road and on the west side of the highway. And for those who want apartments some nearby complexes have already been cleaned up and upgraded.
Granted, the change will not happen overnight but I am sure people will be noticing a gradual change over the next 5 to 7 years, especially as additional buildings are built.


I don't doubt that real estate may be on the rise in Red Bridge but I am skeptical as to Cerner's role. My sister who is a pretty in the know real estate agent in KC tells me houses aren't staying on the market - anything desirable sells practically immediately. I suspect that phenomena has a lot more to do with Red Bridge price increases than Cerner. I don't think all that many people relocate with job changes within KC, it's just too easy of a commute. Maybe if I lived in Liberty and got a job in Olathe, I would relocate but even that drive would be less than the relatively "easy" commute I had in Houston. That is one of the big reasons I don't see much of net gain for Hickman or Ruskin from Cerner, people generally do not need to move as their job location changes in KC.


and the realtors will just direct anyone Cerner recruits from out of town to Johnson County

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby herrfrank » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:03 pm

GRID wrote:In the early and mid 80's KCMO began buying houses a ton of houses in the Ruskin, SKC, Hickman Mills area.  In some parts, near Loma Vista shopping center, Longview and Blue Ridge Blvd etc, one in three houses were section 8 low income housing.  At the same time, all the existing apartments in the area were turning section 8 as well as many new ones.  And there are a lot of apartment complexes along James A Reed just west of Raytown and many more surrounding Hickman Mill High School and down 87th Street near Hillcress and near the Triangle.

Crime went through the roof, housing quickly went into dis-repair and whites fled like there was no tomorrow.  To KS, LS where ever they could. Very nice three bedroom homes sold for 35,000 in 1990.

This area was a vibrant, stable, fast growing area with some of the best and most up to date shopping and dining in the metro area.  Neighborhoods were very nice, middle class areas, schools were top notch.  Then in a matter of years, it was over.

It was bad.

The rest is history.


I worked for a subcontractor of the KC Public Housing Authority during one summer in high school (1986). This was during the timeframe when the high-rise housing towers were being depopulated (and later demolished). The push indeed was to find suburban-type ranch housing for the tenants. However, we prepped houses exclusively on the old East Side: Oak Park, Blue Hills. We never went as far south as Dodson or Marlborough. We also never once looked at a house west of Troost, and I don't think even west of Paseo. The contract was for the whole city, but the eligible housing was clearly demarcated in a few, specific areas.

I don't know when the Section 8 mass migration toward Bannister Mall area started, but I don't believe it was happening, at least with the KC Housing Authority population, until after 1986.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:42 pm

There was a new housing development being built in the 70's located by Longview Rd and Food Lane, just north of Grandview. My wife and I even looked at buying in that area in the 70's and I knew a few people that lived there. The developer/builder was financed by HUD (as I understand) and eventually went bankrupt. Let's just say HUD moved many low-income people to the neighborhood in the later 70's and the people I knew complained about the drop in property values to below what they paid when they bought. My wife worked as a substitute school nurse for the HMSD in the mid 80's. The nearby Ingels Elementary school had a very high percentage of minority students by then whereas the other elementary schools in the district had a very low percentage (close to zero) of minority students except for Sante Fe, but that school still had a large white student body.


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