Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby voltopt » Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:41 pm

dangerboy wrote:Sounds like this was essentially around the same time that the big projects like Wayne Miner were being torn down and people were being dispersed to single family homes and smaller apartment complexes.  It's also the era when the city's housing authority was falling apart and ultimately taken over by the federal government for several years.


and this cycle began in the 1950s with urban renewal and land clearance, basically destroying the northside, most of columbus park (where I-35, garrison park, and paseo are now), quality hill, east 12th street from oak to paseo, and lincoln coles.  there is barely ANYTHING there now resembling a neighborhood, but as little as 50 years ago they were thriving neighborhoods (even if they were low class, in poverty, etc... they were established, old neighborhoods, like the west side)  this complete land clearance, which turned the land into highways and industrial uses (a. Zahner sheet metal, KCATA, budweiser, MGE around 2nd and tracy, MoDot, etc) concentrated housing projects in pockets on the edges.  this neighborhood removal pushed tons of people across 27th street and cleveland, coupled with blockbusting, redlining, and already overcrowding.  it seems like a lesser version of this happened in hickman mills/ruskin, and continues to happen today. 
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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:20 pm

You could say the downfall of the Hickman Mills/Ruskin area started in the 70's.  A developer building houses by Blue Ridge and Longview Road went under.  HUD took it over and started moving families in.  A man I bowled with lived in the neighborhood.  By the time he sold he got less money than he paid for the house.
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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby pstokely » Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:33 pm

what developer was this?

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:36 pm

No idea.  Do know that we looked at buying there when we were house hunting
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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby Thrillcekr » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:41 pm

Doesn't this seem to eventually happen to almost all older neighborhoods?  Especially areas where lots of new but affordable housing was built.  I mean, Independence, KCK, and east KCMO were all the latest and greatest thing at one time until people abandoned them for the new latest greatest thing.  The retail goes down as the neighborhood goes down.  It won't be long before parts of Johnson County and Lee's Summit start going ghetto and everything around it will go to hell in a hand basket.  Then 50 years from now Overland Park will be talkin' about the need for downtown revitalization.  That just seems to be the nature of our society. 

It's still kind of hard to swallow though when you can remember back to what Bannister Mall used to be.  It was clearly the king of all indoor shopping centers in the kc metro during its heyday. 

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby Tosspot » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:48 pm

Thrillcekr wrote:Doesn't this seem to eventually happen to almost all older neighborhoods?  Especially areas where lots of new but affordable housing was built.  I mean, Independence, KCK, and east KCMO were all the latest and greatest thing at one time until people abandoned them for the new latest greatest thing.  The retail goes down as the neighborhood goes down.  It won't be long before parts of Johnson County and Lee's Summit start going ghetto and everything around it will go to hell in a hand basket.  Then 50 years from now Overland Park will be talkin' about the need for downtown revitalization.  That just seems to be the nature of our society. 

It's still kind of hard to swallow though when you can remember back to what Bannister Mall used to be.  It was clearly the king of all indoor shopping centers in the kc metro during its heyday. 


It all just remains to be seen, I think. Never in the history of humanity has such a wholesale abandonment and discarding of central cities taken place, as happened in the United States in the twentieth century. But yes, what you elucidated on is indeed the prevailing pattern of the last few decades.

The possibility remains that in the future, you won't be able to pay someone to live in the farthest-flung nether-regions of our metro, or dozens of other metros all over the country. One nice thing about it though- the abhorrent, abominable, and abortional strip mall gulags of 119th & Metcalf (or similar so called "places") will be outmoded and obsolete, and probably quick to meet the bulldozer once the collective nincompoopery of this befuddled nation realizes the stark epiphany that such vile edifices represent the absolute worst aspects our culture had to offer in the times they were built.
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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby kard » Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:50 pm

I have come to likening 20-21st century American peoples to grasshoppers:  Find, Consume, Move on.
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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby Thrillcekr » Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:14 pm

Tosspot wrote:It all just remains to be seen, I think. Never in the history of humanity has such a wholesale abandonment and discarding of central cities taken place, as happened in the United States in the twentieth century. But yes, what you elucidated on is indeed the prevailing pattern of the last few decades.

The possibility remains that in the future, you won't be able to pay someone to live in the farthest-flung nether-regions of our metro, or dozens of other metros all over the country. One nice thing about it though- the abhorrent, abominable, and abortional strip mall gulags of 119th & Metcalf (or similar so called "places") will be outmoded and obsolete, and probably quick to meet the bulldozer once the collective nincompoopery of this befuddled nation realizes the stark epiphany that such vile edifices represent the absolute worst aspects our culture had to offer in the times they were built.
Maybe I'm way off base but I'm starting to think you don't like strip malls TP. I can't really pinpoint what it is that gives me that feeling though.  :lol:

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby dangerboy » Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:50 pm

Thrillcekr wrote:It won't be long before parts of Johnson County and Lee's Summit start going ghetto and everything around it will go to hell in a hand basket.  Then 50 years from now Overland Park will be talkin' about the need for downtown revitalization.  That just seems to be the nature of our society. 


It's already happening in northeast Johnson County.  OP is already working on downtown redevelopment.  Mission, Merriam, and Roeland Park already have massive redevelopment projects in the works.  Joco has actually learned some lessons from KCMO, KCK, and Independence.  They are getting out in front of the blight, before it wipes whole neighborhoods.

Bannister Mall is kinda unique in that it only had a very brief run as a top-tier mall.  It opened right as the area peaked and started going down hill. 

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby lock+load » Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:17 pm

Tosspot wrote:It all just remains to be seen, I think. Never in the history of humanity has such a wholesale abandonment and discarding of central cities taken place, as happened in the United States in the twentieth century. But yes, what you elucidated on is indeed the prevailing pattern of the last few decades.

The possibility remains that in the future, you won't be able to pay someone to live in the farthest-flung nether-regions of our metro, or dozens of other metros all over the country. One nice thing about it though- the abhorrent, abominable, and abortional strip mall gulags of 119th & Metcalf (or similar so called "places") will be outmoded and obsolete, and probably quick to meet the bulldozer once the collective nincompoopery of this befuddled nation realizes the stark epiphany that such vile edifices represent the absolute worst aspects our culture had to offer in the times they were built.


I think you over estimate the speed with which the general populace with develop a similar disdain for strip malls and the big box lifestyle.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby LenexatoKCMO » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:30 am

Don't forget to blaime the ownership at least a bit.  In order to keep a mall successful you have to constantly pump money into keeping it updated and maintained.  Steady renovations, imporvements, basic maintenance, etc.  If you slip just a bit on any of it, the patrons and tenants will jump like rats on a sinking ship.  The malls that have stayed successful in this city all did that - the ones that didn't are all dead.  Mission mall is probably the lone exception where someone poured big money into remodeling and maintenance and still failed.  They stoped keeping Banister up to date and well maintained a long long time ago. 

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby dangerboy » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:40 am

Patrons didn't really jump ship until Bannister became perceived as "the black mall."  It's a great example of the unspoken racism that still lingers in much of Kansas City.

A lot of that perception came from the almost overnight concentration of what was supposed to be "dispersed" Section 8 housing.  To some extent it also came from the black middle class settling in the Hickman Mills, Center, and Raytown school districts as well as the fact that Bannister sits on several bus lines that come direcltly from mostly black neighborhoods on the East Side.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby GRID » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:07 pm

LenexatoKCMO wrote:Don't forget to blaime the ownership at least a bit.  In order to keep a mall successful you have to constantly pump money into keeping it updated and maintained.  Steady renovations, imporvements, basic maintenance, etc.  If you slip just a bit on any of it, the patrons and tenants will jump like rats on a sinking ship.  The malls that have stayed successful in this city all did that - the ones that didn't are all dead.  Mission mall is probably the lone exception where someone poured big money into remodeling and maintenance and still failed.  They stoped keeping Banister up to date and well maintained a long long time ago. 


Your kidding right?  Bannister was a very nice mall, very well kept and modern.

dangerboy wrote:Patrons didn't really jump ship until Bannister became perceived as "the black mall."  It's a great example of the unspoken racism that still lingers in much of Kansas City.

A lot of that perception came from the almost overnight concentration of what was supposed to be "dispersed" Section 8 housing.  To some extent it also came from the black middle class settling in the Hickman Mills, Center, and Raytown school districts as well as the fact that Bannister sits on several bus lines that come direcltly from mostly black neighborhoods on the East Side.


Exactly, that along with the overblown press coverage of auto thefts and the overreaction of the mall itself with the security towers.

KCK wrote:So what do you suggest we do with Section 8 families? It's obvious the wrong thing to do is to leave them in the inner city, at the same time we don't want them in the suburbs either right? So maybe we should build an island in the middle of the Missouri river for them to live on that way they can't bother anyone anywhere. Or perhaps we could build a village 50 miles away for all poor people to live. Out of sight out of mind.



KCK,  I never said anything about "what to do with section 8 people".  I simply explained what happend in the Southeast KC area.  As a person who grew up in many "section 8" housing projects.  I understand the need for such a thing.

But when you don't have any control over the properties, you take something that is bad like a high density urban core project and make it worse by spreading it out over what was a very nice area.  Slumlords GALORE.
Last edited by GRID on Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby shinatoo » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:31 pm

Banaster Mall lost it's female clientell (bigest shopping segment) in the mid eighties when there was a spat of VERY violent crime, including a store manager getting his throat cut in the parking lot. Of course the same thing was going on all over the country. OakPark mall was having holdups all the time. But mall management was paying off victims big time to not file charges because they new it was bad press and would keep "soccer mom" away.

Crime killed Banister Mall.

Crime follows the poor.

On another subject, Raytown quit growing because it got built out by the early eighties. By 81 there were only a few small plots left for development in the Raytown school district. Other than it's DT area Raytown has got to be the most steady suburb on the Missouri side, maybe second to Gladstone.
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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby dangerboy » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:49 pm

Are you talking about the City of Raytown or the Raytwon School District?  There is still some undeveloped land in the school district, but it's in the KCMO city limits, not the City of Raytown.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby shinatoo » Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:02 pm

If you are talking about the area east of Raytown most of it is either estate lots, very rough terrain or in the Little Blue flood plane. Plus you have KCIR down there. Might be some area on the west side, but for the most part nothing significant.

My vision for Raytown is to build light rail on the old rail line past the stadium and build some High rise condos and a rail station right downtown. They it would offer all the good things about living in KCMO with a good school district too. Pipe dream.
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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby LenexatoKCMO » Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:20 pm

GRID wrote:Your kidding right?  Bannister was a very nice mall, very well kept and modern.


in 1987.  I grew up around the corner from Oak Park, yet we used to drive accross town to shop at Bannister when I was young.  

If you are going to keep a mall going decade after decade you have to do total stirp down remodels when the decor starts getting long in the tooth.  Do Oak Park, Ward Parkway, and Independance Center still look like the mid 80's?  No, they have all had major modifications and investment to keep them up to date.  

Obviously this isn't the only factor in the downfall of Banister but it does beg the question of whether it would have fallen so far off the map if it had benefited from a major redo.  

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby pstokely » Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:02 pm

this person on deamalls.com talks about a lack of security at the mall, when I was there once in 98 on the Sunday after Xmas, there were people smoking dope in the middle (and this was a busy day at the mall)

http://www.deadmalls.com/malls/bannister_mall.html

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:02 pm

shinatoo wrote:My vision for Raytown is to build light rail on the old rail line past the stadium and build some High rise condos and a rail station right downtown. They it would offer all the good things about living in KCMO with a good school district too. Pipe dream.


Families with kids living in high rise condos???????????????????????????????????????
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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby Thrillcekr » Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:06 pm

LenexatoKCMO wrote:in 1987.  I grew up around the corner from Oak Park, yet we used to drive accross town to shop at Bannister when I was young.  

If you are going to keep a mall going decade after decade you have to do total stirp down remodels when the decor starts getting long in the tooth.  Do Oak Park, Ward Parkway, and Independance Center still look like the mid 80's?  No, they have all had major modifications and investment to keep them up to date.  

Obviously this isn't the only factor in the downfall of Banister but it does beg the question of whether it would have fallen so far off the map if it had benefited from a major redo.  
You hit the nail right on the head.  I think it was a combination of that and an increase of criminal activity in the area that brought Bannister to its knees.  That's exactly why metro north is going down the toilet too.  It's the same damn mall it was back in 1980.  Not a thing has been done to it.

DB, I gotta disagree about the racism thing.  I think blacks and whites have done a nice job of peacefully coexisting when conditions are right.  Village West and the I-29/Barry shopping areas have a quite a few black shoppers and it doesn't deter whites from shopping in those places.  I believe Shinatoo was right on target.  The instances of violent crime that started occurring in the area was what scared people off in my opinion.  I'm quite sure that it wouldn't matter if the criminals committing these crimes were white or black.  People wouldn't want to go there regardless if they felt it was unsafe.


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