Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Jackson/Cass Suburbs, including South KC
pstokely
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Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby pstokely » Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:22 pm

Or did the white people just move away?
Last edited by pstokely on Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby Tosspot » Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:30 pm

Jeez, at least Im usually not drunk before 9. Usually.
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until further notice i will routinely point out spelling errors committed by any here whom i frequently do battle wit

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby GRID » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:42 pm

pstokely wrote:Or did the white people just move away?


Ultimately, section 8 killed Bannister Mall.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby pstokely » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:29 am

why don't they just try marketing Bannister Mall as a "black" mall? It's work in other places.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby aknowledgeableperson » Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:59 am

The answer to the question is NO!

Many things killed Bannister Mall, just like the Blue Ridge Mall, and Metcalf South, and the previous life of Ward Parkway Mall, and the Metro North Mall, and the Mission Mall.

I don't believe there is that much Section 8 housing the surrounding neighborhoods but the racial makeup of the neighborhoods did change.  And the economics of the families changed with it.

Plus, two of the four anchors had corporate problems and when their stores closed there were no others to take their place.  Even the corporate retailers in the smaller stores had problems and closed - and no one to take their places.

And it just isn't Bannister Mall in the area but all along Blue Ridge from 87th to Grandview, retail has just gone downhill.

Lived in the area from 1973 to 1987 and we bailed out when seeing the handwriting on the wall.
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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby dangerboy » Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:07 am

The racial makeup of the neighborhood also changed because a lot of the black middle class moved there from inner city in order to get what was a decent suburban school system at the time.  Then they found themselves in a cheap post-WWII neighborhood that wasn't built to last and was starting to go down hill.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby KCK » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:15 pm

Then they found themselves in a cheap post-WWII neighborhood that wasn't built to last and was starting to go down hill.


^Thats silly. The architecture of their neighborhood had nothing to do with it. The problem is crime. Crime drove lots of businesses and residents away. Those businesses and residents being gone made it harder for those who were left.
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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby dangerboy » Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:27 pm

KCK wrote:^Thats silly. The architecture of their neighborhood had nothing to do with it. The problem is crime. Crime drove lots of businesses and residents away. Those businesses and residents being gone made it harder for those who were left.


Yes it was a factor.  The small tract houses quickly fell out of favor as buyers moved on to bigger split levels and eventually McMansions.  Now the city and neighborhood groups are putting a lot of effort into helping people upgrade and expand those tract homes to make them more marketable and raise property values.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby SKCWill » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:06 pm

What are the parameters you guys are using to define the Bannister Mall area?

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby GRID » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:10 pm

Your are right, but this is how most housing developments of this era were constructed.  Ever seen any early photos of Prairie Village or Brookside?  Much of Raytown, the near Northland, Waldo etc?  Same deal.

Section 8 destroyed the area of KCMO between Raytown and Grandview and stopped the amazing suburban booms of Raytown and Grandview dead in their tracks due to association.  KCMO's section 8 housing also killed the fast suburban growth occurring in KCMO itself.  Otherwise today,areas like James and Reed and I-470 (which was to have an interchange before the collapse of the area) Bannister east of Blue Ridge etc would look more like a solid suburban built up area rather than what KCK looks like.  An area that was a very fast growing area, but then everything came to a halt and you have all the underused and leapfrog development that never fully built up before turning ghetto.  Hence you get a rural ghetto feel of the Bannister, Raytown Road, James A Reed etc area.

I witnessed it first hand and have studdied it ever since.
Last edited by GRID on Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby chrizow » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:18 pm

where is this section 8 housing you all are talking about?

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby GRID » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:30 pm

chrizow wrote:where is this section 8 housing you all are talking about?


In the early and mid 80's KCMO began buying houses a ton of houses in the Ruskin, SKC, Hickman Mills area.  In some parts, near Loma Vista shopping center, Longview and Blue Ridge Blvd etc, one in three houses were section 8 low income housing.  A the same time, all the existing apartments in the area were turning section 8 as well as many new ones.  And there are a lot of apartment complexes along James A Reed just west of Raytown and many more surrounding Hickman Mill High School and down 87th Street near Hillcress and near the Triangle.

Crime went through the roof, housing quickly went into dis-repair and whites fled like there was no tomorrow.  To KS, LS where ever they could.  Very nice three bedroom homes sold for 35,000 in 1990.

This area was a vibrant, stable, fast growing area with some of the best and most up to date shopping and dining in the metro area.  Neighborhoods were very nice, middle class areas, schools were top notch.  Then in a matter of years, is was over.

It was bad.

The rest is history.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby GRID » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:56 pm

I just wanted to clarify that I am not blaming KCMO for this.  They were forced to deal with their innercity housing issues and at the time thought this was the right thing to do, incorporate it into its suburban areas.  They took a chance and it failed, bigtime.

This is just one more issue that places like JoCo do not even have to worry about.  Period.  Even places like StL County which is mostly suburban have to deal with section 8 housing, health care for the poor, transit etc.  Clay and Platte also deal with it because KCMO is a big part of those counties.

Just wanted to point that out.

Oh and BTW, this area is just now starting to bounce back.  KCMO should make the Bannister Mall redevelopment a TOP priority.  Right there with the stadiums ASAP.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby pstokely » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:15 pm

If this is area is coming why is Sears closing? (the once at Metcalf South near Kmart is staying open)

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby GRID » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:20 pm

When I say it's bouncing back, I mean housing values have stopped decreasing and it's not as dangerous as some of KC's urban hoods are like it was in the late 90's.

The demographics are gone for the most part.  It will take a long time to return to a respectable area.  It will never be a regional retail powerhouse again.  Those days are over.

I think Sears would stay or build a freestanding store if the city goes through with plans to rebuild the mall area into a first class development but chances are, they will open in LS very soon instead.

Sears is a very suburban oriented retailer.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby KCK » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:51 pm

So what do you suggest we do with Section 8 families? It's obvious the wrong thing to do is to leave them in the inner city, at the same time we don't want them in the suburbs either right? So maybe we should build an island in the middle of the Missouri river for them to live on that way they can't bother anyone anywhere. Or perhaps we could build a village 50 miles away for all poor people to live. Out of sight out of mind.
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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby tat2kc » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:56 pm

I don't think the issue is the Section 8 housing, as much as it is the incompetent landlords who lease to anyone. Just because you have Section 8, that does not mean you are a criminal. Many are, but the landlords shoulder a lot of the blame, for allowing illegal behaviour to continue and to allow the porpety to deteriorate.  Housing codes for rentals needs to be extremely tight, and quickly enforced. 
Are you sure we're talking about the same God here, because yours sounds kind of like a dick.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby dangerboy » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:40 pm

Sounds like this was essentially around the same time that the big projects like Wayne Miner were being torn down and people were being dispersed to single family homes and smaller apartment complexes.  It's also the era when the city's housing authority was falling apart and ultimately taken over by the federal government for several years.

Section 8 itself isn't the problem.  The problem is concentrating too much poverty into one area.  No neighborhood can survive when a third of it is turned to Section 8 overnight.  But there might not have been anywhere else for it go.  Other neighborhoods would have already had a lot of Section 8 or would have been better organized and able to resist.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby warwickland » Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:31 pm

yeah, from what i understand, section 8 should be dispersed evenly, and not concentrated. a house or apartment a block, for instance. that means section 8 housing EVERYWHERE. it's the only way to do it.

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Re: Did section 8 housing kill Bannister Mall?

Postby dangerboy » Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:43 pm

warwickland wrote:yeah, from what i understand, section 8 should be dispersed evenly, and not concentrated. a house or apartment a block, for instance. that means section 8 housing EVERYWHERE. it's the only way to do it.


Unfortunately most of the more influential areas of the city (e.g. Brooside, Northland) have been able to successfully resist Section 8, thereby pushing a disproportionate share onto less powerful neighborhoods like Hickman Mills.


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