NEW Independence Center tenants

[mean]

I were actually from Independence I would be insulted by people making such comments. But that's just me.

Why? It's the truth. Meth was everywhere when I was a teenager growing up out there. No joke. Everyone was doing it. Everyone was selling it. Everyone knew a half dozen people who were cooking it. Every party, there was someone offering meth. Every job I had, there was someone selling meth. It was rampant beyond belief. Granted, there were a lot of other drugs, too, but meth was ridiculously popular. It literally seemed for a while there in the mid-90s like everyone I knew (myself included) was doing it.

I can't think of any reason to take offense at someone telling me the truth.

It's good that a few thousand of you live downtown, but the way you guys rip on eastern jax and praise joco is just weird to me because joco has done far more harm to kcmo than places like lee's summit and liberty could ever do.

I agree that JoCo has done more harm to the region than eastern Jax. I think it sucks, but I don't control it. Nothing I can do will change it. Shopping at a Target a couple minutes further away in Independence instead of Mission won't fix anything. It will just make my round trip ~5 minutes longer, while putting me back in the city I hated and wanted so badly to escape while growing up. Bad mojo, dude. Bad memories.

[GRID]

That's fine. This entire topic just totally pisses me off about KC though. I mean KC is a metro of over 2 million people and and it's down to two indoor malls. (and no it's not like that everywhere just because malls are a fading fad). 2 malls? I'm not huge fan of malls although I don't hate them either, but when you step back and look at why people in KC avoid them it's silly. This shooting brings out a lot of the real thoughts people think in KC. "Indep Center is going downwhill", "I quit going there years ago" "that's a dangerous area now".

I'm just like WTF? I was in and out of Indep Center several times while in town just a few months shopping for christmas items that I could only get in KC and it never even once crossed my mind that the mall was in a state of decline or the demographics there were crap.

If anything, the place seemed rather nice, vibrant and fully leased up and still very "white".

People in KC don't seem to like common areas where people of different races and social backgrounds interact and mingle. Strip malls do fine in KC because you don't see most of the other shoppers between your car and the store you go to. Maybe this is why KC is so against the idea of a real terminal at KCI .

If any of the malls around here were in kc, the people there would freak out because they all have so many minorities in them. I would even say whites are a minority in most of them around here.

No matter if there is crime or not, if Indep Center or Oak Park mall reach a point where there is even 25% black people going to them,they too will see a major loss of white shoppers and will ultimately die among a mass amount of manufactured rumors.

And when I lived in east jax, I guess I just lived in a nice area and associated with decent people because they all had nice homes, nice cars decent to high incomes and there was never even a hint of any sort of drug use, let alone meth and our kids went to very nice schools. Now I didn't hang out in the northern parts of Indep either, but I digress.

And many people from JoCo do look down on anything JaCo (or kcmo, northland etc). Most people that live in Lee's Summit will even tell you that. They will tell you that they are thought of as rednecks or lower class people just because they live in Missouri. JoCo people on the other hand will call it jealousy if a LS person were to say this even though people that live in LS, BS, etc are absolutely not jealous of JoCo. They know it's nice where they live, they know what JoCo is like and they choose east jax over JoCo. Most people in east jax are quite familiar with JoCo and generally respect it as a nice suburb and overlook the "attitude". Most people in JoCo couldn't tell you anything about east jax other than the stadiums are out there some place and there is lots of meth and ghetto.

It may not be viable all the time to drive to MO side retail areas, but I sure would try when you can. A huge chuck of retail taxes in JoCo come from Jackson County and all that does it make JoCo's disposable income appear higher than it really is and Jackson County's lower helping retailers overlook populated areas of JaCo for JoCo.

If you spend $500 at a MO side Target at least something will make its way back to the KCATA, the Zoo, the stadiums/arena, convention center, kcmo bike trails etc. If you spend $500 in JoCo, some of that will probably help the state buy the next AMC, Fishnet or Quintiles from kcmo.

[NDTeve]

Don't even know where to begin with Grid. A shooting at a mall will hurt its reputation. But thanks for your holier than thou "colorblind" rant.

[loftguy]

Don't even know where to begin with Grid. A shooting at a mall will hurt its reputation. But thanks for your holier than thou "colorblind" rant.

I guess I'm a ranter, too.

[chingon]

I mean KC is a metro of over 2 million people and and it's down to two indoor malls. (and no it's not like that everywhere just because malls are a fading fad). 2 malls?

People in KC don't seem to like common areas where people of different races and social backgrounds interact and mingle.

If any of the malls around here were in kc, the people there would freak out because they all have so many minorities in them.

You are acting like a frothy-lipped lunatic. I know you aren't, but, Jesus H., man. Get a grip. You know why "no one can handle it when [you] just tell it like it is"? Because you're usually wrong.


Malls die in KC because of our inherent racism? Not because of :

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124294047987244803.html

like in all these places?

http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/ ... n_america/


Ha. Guess it's our "small town [read: Kansas/KU fan] mindset". They must have that same mindset in places like Washington, DC, too, then.

No? Check out the Virgina and Maryland sections:

http://deadmalls.com/features.html#DC


O wait...it's because white people in KC [read: especially JoCo/Kansas/KU peopl] don't like areas where different races interact. But people in DC do? You sure?

http://dcentric.wamu.org/2011/03/census ... on-in-d-c/

DC metro is the 32nd most segregated. Pretty good compared to a lot of east coast metros (like Baltimore, NY, Boston, Philly, etc). But that's still more segregated --although, only slightly -- than KC at 39th. (Which is higher than Wichita, which is in backwards, racist, segregated Kansas, by the way.)

Your stock and trade has become working yourself up all over the internet about how exceptionally bad things in Kansas City are. We have an exceptionally bad city-suburb divide. Exceptionally bad drivers. Exceptionally bad race relations. Exceptionally bad college sports fans. Blah, blah, blah.

And when someone shows you objective data proving your dystopian KC is largely in your head, your stock response is:

I don't care what chigon says.

Fair enough. But you should care what people who compile this kind of data for a living think. And they mostly agree with me.

[KCMax]

FWIW, we have more than two malls. Oak Park and IC are the two best, but Ward Parkway ain't bad and Metcalf South and the Mall of the Great Plains are still standing despite their crappiness.

[mgsports]

Antioch Center is still here to.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Was in the IC neighborhood today. For a Thurs afternoon in late Jan the mall appeared to be doing just fine.

[mean]

I mean KC is a metro of over 2 million people and we only have SIX malls? You backwards, inbred racists!

[loftguy]

inbred racists!

Finally realized why I don't fit in. I'm too ugly for my cousins to be interested!

[GRID]

I mean KC is a metro of over 2 million people and and it's down to two indoor malls. (and no it's not like that everywhere just because malls are a fading fad). 2 malls?

People in KC don't seem to like common areas where people of different races and social backgrounds interact and mingle.

If any of the malls around here were in kc, the people there would freak out because they all have so many minorities in them.

You are acting like a frothy-lipped lunatic. I know you aren't, but, Jesus H., man. Get a grip. You know why "no one can handle it when [you] just tell it like it is"? Because you're usually wrong.


Malls die in KC because of our inherent racism? Not because of :

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124294047987244803.html

like in all these places?

http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/ ... n_america/


Ha. Guess it's our "small town [read: Kansas/KU fan] mindset". They must have that same mindset in places like Washington, DC, too, then.

No? Check out the Virgina and Maryland sections:

http://deadmalls.com/features.html#DC


O wait...it's because white people in KC [read: especially JoCo/Kansas/KU peopl] don't like areas where different races interact. But people in DC do? You sure?

http://dcentric.wamu.org/2011/03/census ... on-in-d-c/

DC metro is the 32nd most segregated. Pretty good compared to a lot of east coast metros (like Baltimore, NY, Boston, Philly, etc). But that's still more segregated --although, only slightly -- than KC at 39th. (Which is higher than Wichita, which is in backwards, racist, segregated Kansas, by the way.)

Your stock and trade has become working yourself up all over the internet about how exceptionally bad things in Kansas City are. We have an exceptionally bad city-suburb divide. Exceptionally bad drivers. Exceptionally bad race relations. Exceptionally bad college sports fans. Blah, blah, blah.

And when someone shows you objective data proving your dystopian KC is largely in your head, your stock response is:

I don't care what chigon says.

Fair enough. But you should care what people who compile this kind of data for a living think. And they mostly agree with me.

The mall around here seem to be fine. That list is BS because most of those malls were not regional malls in the first place.

The big difference is that in most metros when a regional mall does die, it gets replaced with a new development. Land is too valuble to just raze a mall and turn it into a dirt patch and build a new mall a few miles down the road.

[mean]

The big difference is that in most metros when a regional mall does die, it gets replaced with a new development. Land is too valuble to just raze a mall and turn it into a dirt patch and build a new mall a few miles down the road.

When I think about "most metros" I think about cities surrounded by suburbs surrounded by fields, a lot like KC. I don't know whether land in most metros is more valuable than it is here, probably to some extent, but the kind of sprawly nonsense you describe seems to be pretty common all over to me.

[GRID]

The big difference is that in most metros when a regional mall does die, it gets replaced with a new development. Land is too valuble to just raze a mall and turn it into a dirt patch and build a new mall a few miles down the road.

When I think about "most metros" I think about cities surrounded by suburbs surrounded by fields, a lot like KC. I don't know whether land in most metros is more valuable than it is here, probably to some extent, but the kind of sprawly nonsense you describe seems to be pretty common all over to me.

Denver is pretty sprawly, and they have flipped most of their old malls.

Is there an example anywhere that even remotely compares to Bannister Mall / Benjamin Plaza where a regional retail area of close to 3 million sq feet dating only back to the late 80's has been completely vacated and a relatively new super regional mall razed only to sit empty. That is a HUGE area.

In all of my flying above cities in helicopters I have never seen anything like what the Bannister Mall area looks like. The only thing I can think of that even comes close is some of the suburban areas of New Orleans after Katrina.

I think KC has a more throw away mentality that most metros because land is so plentiful and cheap and developers get so many tax breaks to build in affluent green fields. I follow development and few metro areas (even those with competing suburban cities) hand out the kinds of crazy incentives to developers as metro KC does, especially when it’s not a redevelopment or new urbanism development.

So you end up with retail that is more likely to at least survive (may no longer thrive) even with not so great demographics because there is not a new mall a few miles down the road and the density is high enough that enough people will use it regardless.

[longviewmo]

Is there an example anywhere that even remotely compares to Bannister Mall / Benjamin Plaza where a regional retail area of close to 3 million sq feet dating only back to the late 80's has been completely vacated and a relatively new super regional mall razed only to sit empty. That is a HUGE area.

The only place I can think of that can even be remotely compared to what happened at Bannister is the Mall of Memphis, which thrived for a few years less than Bannister and has a pretty depressed area around it, but not completely dead.

[chaglang]

I think KC has a more throw away mentality that most metros because land is so plentiful and cheap and developers get so many tax breaks to build in affluent green fields.

Maybe, but I'm not sure our treatment of malls is an example of this. I still think Bannister was a victim of bad siting and follow-through. Not knowing a lot about the history of it's development, I'd guess there was a gamble that there was some affluence moving SE of the city. When that didn't happen, or when the money moved through that area and out to Lee's Summit, there wasn't much effort to develop the area into something that could support a mall of that size. And by the time things got really bad out there, the city's priorities had shifted to downtown projects.

Maybe that reads as a throw-away culture, but I think it's important that the shift in focus didn't involve building another mall. 30 years ago, when Oak Park was bleeding Metcalf South to death, I would have agreed with you. But we've stopped building malls. I think GMOTGP was the last mall built around here and that was over 15 years ago. When I look at the area around Oak Park, it seems that we've moved on to a different type of retail structure: the medium box store. The north side of 95th, across from OP is a great example of what I'm talking about. And I can't really call that throwaway culture, because Oak Park is still very busy.

[mgsports]

Metcalf South Mall needs to be turned into a opening air place with a Super K-Mart Central,Ross Dress for Less,Shopko,Trader Joe's or Albertsons,IKEA,TJMAXX and More,Menards,Famous Daves,Ron John Surf Shop and so on

[kansas]

Malls are unappealing because (unless you are shopping for a whole afternoon) the quarter mile hike from car to store is a pita.

[Stockton]

Is there an example anywhere that even remotely compares to Bannister Mall / Benjamin Plaza where a regional retail area of close to 3 million sq feet dating only back to the late 80's has been completely vacated and a relatively new super regional mall razed only to sit empty. That is a HUGE area.

The only place I can think of that can even be remotely compared to what happened at Bannister is the Mall of Memphis, which thrived for a few years less than Bannister and has a pretty depressed area around it, but not completely dead.

I didn't see the similarities between Bannister and Indian Springs until recently, but the exact same trends lead to the demise of both of them. I also used to think the Bannister area was more upscale than Indian Springs, but upon closer inspection it doesn't appear to be (mainly looking at housing stock).

The mall's demise that is truly perplexing is Metro North. It was the only large mall north of the river and at a crossroads between decent suburban areas in all directions.

[warwickland]

Ron Jon Surf Shop? Is that the new Hot Topic, what all these bright sunglassed anti-goths?

[GRID]

Is there an example anywhere that even remotely compares to Bannister Mall / Benjamin Plaza where a regional retail area of close to 3 million sq feet dating only back to the late 80's has been completely vacated and a relatively new super regional mall razed only to sit empty. That is a HUGE area.

The only place I can think of that can even be remotely compared to what happened at Bannister is the Mall of Memphis, which thrived for a few years less than Bannister and has a pretty depressed area around it, but not completely dead.

I didn't see the similarities between Bannister and Indian Springs until recently, but the exact same trends lead to the demise of both of them. I also used to think the Bannister area was more upscale than Indian Springs, but upon closer inspection it doesn't appear to be (mainly looking at housing stock).

The mall's demise that is truly perplexing is Metro North. It was the only large mall north of the river and at a crossroads between decent suburban areas in all directions.

Metro North should bounce back once the population of the northland gets another 50k or so. But the owners of the mall need to make it happen, if they don't make it a priority, then it will continue to rot away regardless of the demographics. And while indoor malls are not longer the fad, they are still quite popular, especially in cold weather cities and KC should be able to support three regional indoor malls.