White Flight, etc (split from Perceptions of Raytown)

[slimwhitman]

they scare away the longtime white residents when they move in, the children of those people move to places like Raymore and Lees Summit or Johnson County if they can afford it,

Impossible. Racism is over. I read it on the internet.

I have always believed that most people “white flight” not because they dislike or are scared or minorities, but because they want to protect their investment. My grandpa told me about his uncle moving from Ivanhoe in ’54 because “blacks were moving in”. It was purely a financial decision. Get out while the getting’s good.

My parents built a house at 87th & Pflumm in ’91. It cost them $235K to build. It went up to about $450K around 2005, but the local grade school was designated as a school for “spanish as first language” school, so the apartments nearby are loaded with Hispanics and the home prices have crashed. They would be lucky to get $300K for the house now…and that is in a stable 99% white subdivision. The problem is that young white families are staying away, so there are fewer buyers to push values up. The time to get out for them was 2005 (if investment was their 1st priority), but things are not getting better for the neighborhood’s value until the school goes back to an English focus to make the general affluent population want to send their kids to that school.

Raytown’s time has also come and gone. For anyone paying attention to the population change and cares about their investment, they are long gone. That doesn’t mean things can’t flip around, but it is a lot harder to reverse the downward slide than one might think and Raytown’s bones are so weak that I never see it happening. That does not mean it can’t be a nice place to live. It just means that those that plan to stay and invest their time and money there will be fighting the general trend of dis-investment and transient rental housing.

[mean]

they scare away the longtime white residents when they move in, the children of those people move to places like Raymore and Lees Summit or Johnson County if they can afford it,

Impossible. Racism is over. I read it on the internet.

I have always believed that most people “white flight” not because they dislike or are scared or minorities, but because they want to protect their investment. My grandpa told me about his uncle moving from Ivanhoe in ’54 because “blacks were moving in”. It was purely a financial decision. Get out while the getting’s good.

Even if it was true in 100% of cases, which I doubt, isn't that indicative of systemic racism?

[slimwhitman]

Even if it was true in 100% of cases, which I doubt, isn't that indicative of systemic racism?

Sort of, but that is only because minorities tend to be lower income in this town. These days, minorities moving into a neighborhood is a general indicator of neighborhood decline (at least in KC). It is all about stability. If a neighborhood slowly (decades) transitions to a different or blended race or ethnicity, then that can be healthy. If a neighborhood transitions more quickly, that is a sign of degradation of housing stock, schools, infrastructure, municipal services or whatever. Those degraded qualities are lowering the desirability of the neighborhood. And for those with the money to live anywhere they choose, they leave to a neighborhood that is not seeing those degradations. This lower desirability will lower housing prices which bring in lower income buyers/renters. Lower income residents often bring with them social problems...lowering home values even more.

I don't know anyone that would sell a house because a black family moved in next door, just because they are black. In fact, most that I know would be great with that, if the black family were good people with good kids that kept a tidy property. I am not saying everyone is like this, but I think the great majority are.

They would move if a neighbor was not maintaining their property or were causing criminal or social problems for the neighborhood...white or black.

[mean]

I don't know anyone that would sell a house because a black family moved in next door, just because they are black. In fact, most that I know would be great with that, if the black family were good people with good kids that kept a tidy property. I am not saying everyone is like this, but I think the great majority are.

I do, and that's kind of why this bothers me. In fact, I know so many people who would--I wouldn't call them friends--that it makes me feel like either I'm living in a completely different bizzaro-world, or you are.

edit: On reflection, though, none of those people to whom I refer would ever admit that they were being racist, or that their motives were racist. I'm sure they're quite convinced that they are not at all racist in any way.

[pstokely]

I don't know anyone that would sell a house because a black family moved in next door, just because they are black. In fact, most that I know would be great with that, if the black family were good people with good kids that kept a tidy property. I am not saying everyone is like this, but I think the great majority are.

I do, and that's kind of why this bothers me. In fact, I know so many people who would--I wouldn't call them friends--that it makes me feel like either I'm living in a completely different bizzaro-world, or you are.

edit: On reflection, though, none of those people to whom I refer would ever admit that they were being racist, or that their motives were racist. I'm sure they're quite convinced that they are not at all racist in any way.

they might post racist comments on a message board where they can hide, but they aren't openly racist like Klan members

[aknowledgeableperson]

Sort of, but that is only because minorities tend to be lower income in this town. These days, minorities moving into a neighborhood is a general indicator of neighborhood decline (at least in KC).

Out here in Raymore minorities are everywhere in my development. True, they are still low in numbers but this neighborhood is still in great demand. Lower income I don't know but there is a mix in the neighborhood - working class whites and professional blacks.

[mean]

I don't know anyone that would sell a house because a black family moved in next door, just because they are black. In fact, most that I know would be great with that, if the black family were good people with good kids that kept a tidy property. I am not saying everyone is like this, but I think the great majority are.

I do, and that's kind of why this bothers me. In fact, I know so many people who would--I wouldn't call them friends--that it makes me feel like either I'm living in a completely different bizzaro-world, or you are.

edit: On reflection, though, none of those people to whom I refer would ever admit that they were being racist, or that their motives were racist. I'm sure they're quite convinced that they are not at all racist in any way.

they might post racist comments on a message board where they can hide, but they aren't openly racist like Klan members

I mean people I know personally, not internet racists.

[flyingember]

I don't know anyone that would sell a house because a black family moved in next door, just because they are black. In fact, most that I know would be great with that, if the black family were good people with good kids that kept a tidy property. I am not saying everyone is like this, but I think the great majority are.

I do, and that's kind of why this bothers me. In fact, I know so many people who would--I wouldn't call them friends--that it makes me feel like either I'm living in a completely different bizzaro-world, or you are.

edit: On reflection, though, none of those people to whom I refer would ever admit that they were being racist, or that their motives were racist. I'm sure they're quite convinced that they are not at all racist in any way.

times are different. it's not like neighborhoods largely empty out of white families like happened in KC schools. it's not like realtors move a black family in and expect massive business from all the white families. these days it would be more isolated and much more hidden.

a lot of racism was transferred to perceptions of crime or drugs. it's all but a joke that the star won't say a potential criminal if is black despite asking for help in identifying the person but will say if they're white

[mean]

I don't know anyone that would sell a house because a black family moved in next door, just because they are black. In fact, most that I know would be great with that, if the black family were good people with good kids that kept a tidy property. I am not saying everyone is like this, but I think the great majority are.

I do, and that's kind of why this bothers me. In fact, I know so many people who would--I wouldn't call them friends--that it makes me feel like either I'm living in a completely different bizzaro-world, or you are.

edit: On reflection, though, none of those people to whom I refer would ever admit that they were being racist, or that their motives were racist. I'm sure they're quite convinced that they are not at all racist in any way.

times are different. it's not like neighborhoods largely empty out of white families like happened in KC schools. it's not like realtors move a black family in and expect massive business from all the white families. these days it would be more isolated and much more hidden.

a lot of racism was transferred to perceptions of crime or drugs. it's all but a joke that the star won't say a potential criminal if is black despite asking for help in identifying the person but will say if they're white

I've had quite a few people make comments to me about why they've chosen to live where they live that included phrases like their former burg being "too dark" or whatever. Am I seriously the only one?

[chrizow]

I've had quite a few people make comments to me about why they've chosen to live where they live that included phrases like their former burg being "too dark" or whatever. Am I seriously the only one?

i, too, have heard comments from people that they want to move because the town/neighborhood is becoming "too dark." they always use really pathetic language like that, too - "too dark," or, my favorite, an older couple who lived across the street from my parents telling my mom that a "dark storm is coming" and that they are glad they will be dead before it fully arrives.

also, i will say that what slimwhitman is describing is racism, or at least the product of racism, plain and simple.

[slimwhitman]

also, i will say that what slimwhitman is describing is racism, or at least the product of racism, plain and simple.

So...if any of you owned a home in a neighborhood that was seeing a drop in value due to a changing demographic, and the house you owned was nice, but not the "place of your dreams", would you stay there or sell? Would you try to protect your investment or stay and watch your dollars evaporate?

I would be gone in a heartbeat. See ya! Live and let die. If a city government, neighborhood organization, school district or whatever is inept and unable to turn the tide, then why waste my time and money watching the neighborhood crumble. Get out and head for greener pastures.

This is not (always) a race issue. It is an investment issue.

This is all moot if you absolutely love your neighborhood or house and want to fight the fight, but so few neighborhoods are so worthy, especially in post WWII-era Raytown.

[chaglang]

This is not (always) a race issue. It is an investment issue.

But you only mentioned a "changing demographic". Is there a "bad homeowner" demographic that I'm unaware of?

[mean]

So...if any of you owned a home in a neighborhood that was seeing a drop in value due to a changing demographic, and the house you owned was nice, but not the "place of your dreams", would you stay there or sell? Would you try to protect your investment or stay and watch your dollars evaporate?

No, I would not begin the self-fulfilling prophesy of reduced home value by being scared of minorities and getting out of my house for less than it's worth to avoid them. Isn't that what really causes the phenomenon?

[slimwhitman]

So...if any of you owned a home in a neighborhood that was seeing a drop in value due to a changing demographic, and the house you owned was nice, but not the "place of your dreams", would you stay there or sell? Would you try to protect your investment or stay and watch your dollars evaporate?

No, I would not begin the self-fulfilling prophesy of reduced home value by being scared of minorities and getting out of my house for less than it's worth to avoid them. Isn't that what really causes the phenomenon?

I am perplexed that some of you keep throwing up the race card. Race is not the concern for most people. The concern is the lowered home value due to many factors. Lowering home values means a new demographic is moving in, typically with lower expectations for property maintenance, less supervision of teen children, less/desire time to participate in community benefit activities (PTA, etc). Race is not the motivating factor these days, but I do think that a transition in race is an obvious indicator that things are changing and a wake-up call to assess what is happening in the neighborhood. You make it sound like everyone is this a racist, when I really think it is more about being a “classist” (scared of people in a lower income class).

I recently talked to a dad that teaches in Center S.D. They recently moved from Center to Shawnee Mission because he was concerned how little the parents in the Center district participate in PTA or parent-teacher events. He thinks the district is a good one, but that the families are not trying very hard to be involved. He didn’t want that environment for his kindergartener, so they moved over. He was very clear to say it was not a race thing and more a quality of family structure that he wanted to get away from. I think that is often the case in lower economic areas and this is one thing people don’t care to live around and invest time and money into.

[slimwhitman]

So...if any of you owned a home in a neighborhood that was seeing a drop in value due to a changing demographic, and the house you owned was nice, but not the "place of your dreams", would you stay there or sell? Would you try to protect your investment or stay and watch your dollars evaporate?

No, I would not begin the self-fulfilling prophesy of reduced home value by being scared of minorities and getting out of my house for less than it's worth to avoid them. Isn't that what really causes the phenomenon?

I am perplexed that some of you keep throwing up the race card. Race is not the concern for most people. The concern is the lowered home value due to many factors. Lowering home values means a new demographic is moving in, typically with lower expectations for property maintenance, less supervision of teen children, less desire/time to participate in community benefit activities (PTA, etc). Race is not the motivating factor these days, but I do think that a transition in race is an obvious indicator that things are changing and a wake-up call to assess what is happening in the neighborhood. You make it sound like everyone is this a racist, when I really think it is more about being a “classist” (scared of people in a lower income class).

I recently talked to a dad that teaches in Center S.D. They recently moved from Center to Shawnee Mission because he was concerned how little the parents in the Center district participate in PTA or parent-teacher events. He thinks the district is a good one, but that the families are not trying very hard to be involved. He didn’t want that environment for his kindergartener, so they moved over. He was very clear to say it was not a race thing and more a quality of family structure that he wanted to get away from. I think that is often the case in lower economic areas and this is one thing people don’t care to live around and invest time and money into.

[aknowledgeableperson]

No, I would not begin the self-fulfilling prophesy of reduced home value by being scared of minorities and getting out of my house for less than it's worth to avoid them. Isn't that what really causes the phenomenon?

My wife and I have owned 4 homes since we have been married. That means we have moved three times. For our first house we were in a Hickman Mills neighborhood. Before three years were up we moved three blocks north and three blocks west. The reason for the move was to get into a bigger house without adding on, which was something our next door neighbors and now long time friends did. By moving we got our bigger house at a lower cost than adding on. In looking at houses we decided to stay in HM instead of moving into the Red Bridge area since we could purchase our house in HM for $15,000 to $20,000 less than in RB. After eleven years we finally moved to the Red Bridge area, again into a bigger home. However the price appreciation in Red Bridge was greater than in the Hickman Mills area. Instead of a $15,000 to $20,000 difference a similar house in Red Bridge was now about $35,000 to $40,000 difference. Our move four plus years ago to Raymore was into a house more or less the same size but it cost more. However the plusses in the current neighborhood justified the additional cost.
Now, our long time friends still live in their Hickman Mills neighborhood, in the house they added onto. To make a long story short that house is now valued for less than their purchase price in the 70's plus the cost of the addition. They had a chance to sell it 10 years ago, at a nice but not large profit, but declined for many reasons. Of course it is a decision they now regret.
For each move we moved for many reasons. Was race a factor in the move from the Hickman Mills area to the Red Bridge area? Yes and no. Where we lived at the time there was one black family on the block (in the most expensive house on the block BTW) and very few on the surrounding blocks (the kids elementary school only had a handful of black students) but my wife and I did not like the long term prospects for the area because we had seen what had happened in the southern HM area. Economics was more of a factor than race since there were more blacks in the new RB neighborhood than in the old HM neighborhood but they were more middle-class, much like the ones in Raymore now.
Maybe in the past people moved solely because of race but nowadays it is extremely hard to find a lily-white neighborhood.

[mean]

He was very clear to say it was not a race thing and more a quality of family structure that he wanted to get away from.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

[chaglang]

I am perplexed that some of you keep throwing up the race card. Race is not the concern for most people. The concern is the lowered home value due to many factors. Lowering home values means a new demographic is moving in, typically with lower expectations for property maintenance, less supervision of teen children, less desire/time to participate in community benefit activities (PTA, etc). Race is not the motivating factor these days, but I do think that a transition in race is an obvious indicator that things are changing and a wake-up call to assess what is happening in the neighborhood. You make it sound like everyone is this a racist, when I really think it is more about being a “classist” (scared of people in a lower income class).

No doubt, some people are classists. But the term is also frequently used as a beard for racist behavior. It's socially acceptable to move to protect your home investment from lower class people. That's standard free market argle-blargle. It's not acceptable to move because the neighborhood is getting too dark. So they go with the class reason. Even saying that race isn't a concern for most people is a great indication that this is what's happening. I have had time believing that in a city that reached it's present form due in large part to now-illegal racist real estate practices and remains largely divided by race, that we would suddenly be beyond using race as a reason for moving. The sudden omission is strange, no?

You sort of set up the whole equation when you listed the reasons other people move:
New demographic=maintenance, supervision, participation=time to move.

Ok. But if race is an obvious indicator of a demographic shift and a wake-up call to reassess the neighborhood, as you say, the equation is:
Transition in race=new demographic=less maintenance, supervision, participation=time to move.

I think that the fact that those are so similar is the reason people here keep talking about race.

[chaglang]

More succinctly, this quote

Race is not the concern for most people.

and this quote

I do think that a transition in race is an obvious indicator that things are changing and a wake-up call to assess what is happening in the neighborhood.

read as contradictory to me.

[slimwhitman]

More succinctly, this quote

Race is not the concern for most people.

and this quote

I do think that a transition in race is an obvious indicator that things are changing and a wake-up call to assess what is happening in the neighborhood.

read as contradictory to me.

Apparently, I am completely inept at making my point, so...i quit...you win. Carry on with that chip on your shoulder.