Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
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FangKC
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by FangKC » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:29 pm

Let us not forget the incident (I think last year) where shots were fired while the Mayor was standing nearby observing night-time weekend activity on the Plaza.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by brewcrew1000 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:38 pm

kcjak wrote:
I've experienced it first hand and it IS frightening. I avoid the Plaza on Saturday nights and know other people who won't even go after dark on any night because. I live in midtown and would rather deal with a rough crowd in Westport than going to the Plaza on a Saturday night.

The video from last weekend and from what I've seen in person is not simply kids walking down the street peacefully all evening long. There are incidents where people are knocked to the ground. Kids damaging cars by hitting them or walking on the hoods. Shoppers are cursed at. Employees are being assaulted and/or robbed when leaving work. Put additional surveillance cameras around and use that as evidence.
Thanks for sharing, I was just wondering was there any kind of threats made towards you that night or were you just scared it was just a lot of out of control teens in mass volume. I don't know how I would react in that situation but the way the media already has it embedded in my mind, I might throw some punches.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by FangKC » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:42 pm

KCPD might have been monitoring social media and saw something was going to happen that night. I recall hearing something on the news awhile back that they were doing that.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by taxi » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:55 pm

The first thing that usually happens after a problem like this is the installation of cameras. And it has been going on for a while. If I was a betting man, I would wager that there are a shit ton of surveillance cameras that caught footage of what happened, but is not being released for fear of losing business.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by WoodDraw » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:12 pm

Didn't someone get shot when Sly James went down to show everyone everything was okay? And there was another video of people jumping on cars and running around.

I don't see why it's not easily solved by having police around though.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by yeliab » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:28 pm

Or we could try to address the systematic issues that could be causing the alleged behavior and the moral panic of the media rather than giving up more of our privacy rights and further criminalizing an already over-policed & over-criminalized (and over-surveilled, while we’re on the subject) population. Probably a topic for a larger thread, but there’s certainly a better and cheaper alternative than criminalizing teenagers who’ve been left behind by this community. Having done accountability research on the KCPD, I wouldn’t rely on them for much anyway.

Let’s be honest, some of y’all would rather pay more for them to spend time in jail than a community center.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by kcjak » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:36 pm

brewcrew1000 wrote:
kcjak wrote:
I've experienced it first hand and it IS frightening. I avoid the Plaza on Saturday nights and know other people who won't even go after dark on any night because. I live in midtown and would rather deal with a rough crowd in Westport than going to the Plaza on a Saturday night.

The video from last weekend and from what I've seen in person is not simply kids walking down the street peacefully all evening long. There are incidents where people are knocked to the ground. Kids damaging cars by hitting them or walking on the hoods. Shoppers are cursed at. Employees are being assaulted and/or robbed when leaving work. Put additional surveillance cameras around and use that as evidence.
Thanks for sharing, I was just wondering was there any kind of threats made towards you that night or were you just scared it was just a lot of out of control teens in mass volume. I don't know how I would react in that situation but the way the media already has it embedded in my mind, I might throw some punches.
Last summer I was in my car turning onto 47th in front of PF Changs with a car in front us also turning. All of a sudden kids came running from the west and headed toward Mill Creek Park. They jumped on the fender and hood of our car and jumped up and down - the car (a Jeep Patriot) was lurching back and forth. Pounded on the windows, cursing. At one point couldn't even see the car in front of us.

I can't imagine what it's like for servers to get off of work and have to make it to their cars or walk around on foot with a lot of cash. Or people from out of town going out to shop, watch a movie or dinner and have to experience that.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by WoodDraw » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:42 pm

yeliab wrote:Or we could try to address the systematic issues that could be causing the alleged behavior and the moral panic of the media rather than giving up more of our privacy rights and further criminalizing an already over-policed & over-criminalized (and over-surveilled, while we’re on the subject) population. Probably a topic for a larger thread, but there’s certainly a better and cheaper alternative than criminalizing teenagers who’ve been left behind by this community. Having done accountability research on the KCPD, I wouldn’t rely on them for much anyway.

Let’s be honest, some of y’all would rather pay more for them to spend time in jail than a community center.
The thing that's starting to drive me crazy about this forum is that everything becomes something bigger than it is. You want to solve the macro levels and I'm with you, but we have to solve the micro levels too.

If you want to go fight for criminal justice and police reform, I'll sign your petition. But we can't in the mean time have this shit happening.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by KCPowercat » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:00 pm

Just privitize the sidewalks and wand people...that's our only answer in this city

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by yeliab » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:04 pm

Well I believe in a systemic change that would involve shifting the resources given to police to under-served communities which involves advocating for non-criminalizing alternatives when the conversation comes up. So here’s one: the Plaza could put on something for the kids to do, maybe an event by the creek where they could congregate in groups and still filter through the Plaza. Welcoming them into the community rather than casting them aside.

Think of it as reparations for the districts long history of racist and antisemetic exclusion.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by taxi » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:08 pm

What happened to that nifty idea of piping in loud classical and jazz music to repel the undesirables?

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by brewcrew1000 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:15 pm

And its not like this only happens in KC. I've seen stories on this kind of chaos in cities like Philly, Chicago, etc. Where groups of kids will just rush an upscale store and take what they can grab. In Chicago its even happening at the beaches along Lake Michigan.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by yeliab » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:17 pm

taxi wrote:What happened to that nifty idea of piping in loud classical and jazz music to repel the undesirables?
I should have specified *non-violent* alternatives

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by TheLastGentleman » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:17 pm

taxi wrote:What happened to that nifty idea of piping in loud classical and jazz music to repel the undesirables?
Wait, was that an actual plan??

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by yeliab » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:53 pm

brewcrew1000 wrote:And its not like this only happens in KC. I've seen stories on this kind of chaos in cities like Philly, Chicago, etc. Where groups of kids will just rush an upscale store and take what they can grab. In Chicago its even happening at the beaches along Lake Michigan.
Highlighting multiple cases is not an analysis. What do these cities have in common? Quite segregated as a result of white flight, redlining, etc., for one. What are the historical circumstances of these places? I know that Lake Michigan used to have housing projects along it that were essentially abandoned by the city, leading to huge maintanence and crime issues. Those were torn down without having the adequate amount of housing for displaced residents to go. I know that that land was quite valuable and those displaced residents and their children were thrown into more dire circumstances while people, including government officials, profited greatly.

Part of my point is that if people are throwing out more cops/surveillance as a solution, taking into account the historical context of these situations and how they might affect perspectives of those involved on all sides is pretty important in understanding how to solve the problem.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by brewcrew1000 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:19 pm

yeliab wrote:
brewcrew1000 wrote:And its not like this only happens in KC. I've seen stories on this kind of chaos in cities like Philly, Chicago, etc. Where groups of kids will just rush an upscale store and take what they can grab. In Chicago its even happening at the beaches along Lake Michigan.
Highlighting multiple cases is not an analysis. What do these cities have in common? Quite segregated as a result of white flight, redlining, etc., for one. What are the historical circumstances of these places? I know that Lake Michigan used to have housing projects along it that were essentially abandoned by the city, leading to huge maintanence and crime issues. Those were torn down without having the adequate amount of housing for displaced residents to go. I know that that land was quite valuable and those displaced residents and their children were thrown into more dire circumstances while people, including government officials, profited greatly.

Part of my point is that if people are throwing out more cops/surveillance as a solution, taking into account the historical context of these situations and how they might affect perspectives of those involved on all sides is pretty important in understanding how to solve the problem.
I wasn't trying to analyze anything, i was just pointing out that its not a KC only issue.

I really think the biggest issue is the lack of discipline at home and in some cases the lack of a father, you can throw all the money in the world at this and put up community centers at every corner, impose curfews at every establishment and have mentors for these kids around the clock but these issues will just keep popping up because these teens lack basic fundamental needs/rules starting at an early age. There are numerous times I will see a single mom with her 4 kids at the plaza movie theater and the kids are talking loud, crying, running amok while the mom texts on her phone and posts on social media and does absolutely nothing. That is not parenting, she is basically doing a little better then a babysitter.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by yeliab » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:32 pm

brewcrew1000 wrote:
yeliab wrote:
brewcrew1000 wrote:And its not like this only happens in KC. I've seen stories on this kind of chaos in cities like Philly, Chicago, etc. Where groups of kids will just rush an upscale store and take what they can grab. In Chicago its even happening at the beaches along Lake Michigan.
Highlighting multiple cases is not an analysis. What do these cities have in common? Quite segregated as a result of white flight, redlining, etc., for one. What are the historical circumstances of these places? I know that Lake Michigan used to have housing projects along it that were essentially abandoned by the city, leading to huge maintanence and crime issues. Those were torn down without having the adequate amount of housing for displaced residents to go. I know that that land was quite valuable and those displaced residents and their children were thrown into more dire circumstances while people, including government officials, profited greatly.

Part of my point is that if people are throwing out more cops/surveillance as a solution, taking into account the historical context of these situations and how they might affect perspectives of those involved on all sides is pretty important in understanding how to solve the problem.
I wasn't trying to analyze anything, i was just pointing out that its not a KC only issue.

I really think the biggest issue is the lack of discipline at home and in some cases the lack of a father, you can throw all the money in the world at this and put up community centers at every corner, impose curfews at every establishment and have mentors for these kids around the clock but these issues will just keep popping up because these teens lack basic fundamental needs/rules starting at an early age. There are numerous times I will see a single mom with her 4 kids at the plaza movie theater and the kids are talking loud, crying, running amok while the mom texts on her phone and posts on social media and does absolutely nothing. That is not parenting, she is basically doing a little better then a babysitter.
Well, you're right that these children are lacking basic fundamental needs, but again there's not much of an analysis to what you've observed and what you think is the problem (to be fair, perhaps you were not trying to give an analysis this time either). I won't get further into the weeds here, and I'll let this be my last word because we're definitely straying from the point of this thread.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by WoodDraw » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:38 pm

yeliab wrote:Well I believe in a systemic change that would involve shifting the resources given to police to under-served communities which involves advocating for non-criminalizing alternatives when the conversation comes up. So here’s one: the Plaza could put on something for the kids to do, maybe an event by the creek where they could congregate in groups and still filter through the Plaza. Welcoming them into the community rather than casting them aside.

Think of it as reparations for the districts long history of racist and antisemetic exclusion.
I think this is fantastic idea.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by Highlander » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:43 am

WoodDraw wrote:
yeliab wrote:Well I believe in a systemic change that would involve shifting the resources given to police to under-served communities which involves advocating for non-criminalizing alternatives when the conversation comes up. So here’s one: the Plaza could put on something for the kids to do, maybe an event by the creek where they could congregate in groups and still filter through the Plaza. Welcoming them into the community rather than casting them aside.

Think of it as reparations for the districts long history of racist and antisemetic exclusion.
I think this is fantastic idea.
I am sorry but this stuff is ridiculous. The Plaza isn't a playground, it is a business into which the owners have invested hundreds of millions of dollars. Loitering and aggressive behavior by youths of any color or creed have no place there and absolutely pose a risk to the business not to mention it's patrons. The idea the plaza owes some kind of "reparations" to anyone is absurd - the Plaza has changed hands twice since it was started by JC Nichols. Yea, there's a lot of stuff society could do to address the plight of the poor but it's neither the subject of this thread or the primary concern of the owners of the plaza. The plaza depends on people that actually do spend money, a lot of money, to purchase the goods of their shop owners and eat at their restaurants in order to survive. If those people do not feel safe on the Plaza, they will not patronize its businesses and that reality isn't going to wait until we address all the shortcomings of our economic system. The problems we are talking about need to be addressed as they happen: No customers - no plaza.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by DaveKCMO » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:25 am

taxi wrote:What happened to that nifty idea of piping in loud classical and jazz music to repel the undesirables?
Didn't Westport do this for awhile?

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