Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
earthling
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling » Tue May 29, 2018 4:23 pm

As has been mentioned, CVS/Walgreens/Duane Reade have multiple stores in districts around US with far higher rent, like Vegas strip, 5th Ave and Michigan Ave. The last locally owned Plaza drugstore couldn't afford the big jump in rent when Highwoods took over and because they didn't have scale. CVS can obviously though goods will be priced according to rent/foot traffic (like BKS CVS and high end districts). The 50th/Main store is one of the lowest traffic I've been to, sometimes I see only 1-2 others in there. They may be willing to move to Plaza with much higher foot traffic, especially when streetcar stop appears. If not Plaza directly then maybe to a repurposed Plaza Tennis Center streetcar stop.

This isn't unrealistic but I'll admit I'm talking about ideals that the urban core as a whole should pursue, with Plaza most quickly able to expand that ideal (full circle pedestrian scale living). Seems most statements have been about Plaza not needing it (including you), not that the numbers won't work. Some responses seem to imply it's foolish to talk about... that is pessimism.

But you are right, the last two Plaza owners have not factored the neighborhood around it, which I've pointed out too. As retail changes due to impact of online competition, they probably should cater to the neighborhood. Walking to amenities can spur other shopping as much as other way around.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by chingon » Tue May 29, 2018 6:44 pm

let’s talk about what kind of glass they will use for the doors in the cooler section for about 50 pages while we’re at it

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chaglang
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by chaglang » Wed May 30, 2018 6:06 am

chingon wrote:let’s talk about what kind of glass they will use for the doors in the cooler section for about 50 pages while we’re at it
I hear that tempered, insulated glass unit with a vacuum sealed spacer is the latest thing. Excellent insulation value. Very high end.

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MidtownCat
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by MidtownCat » Wed May 30, 2018 11:36 am

Mods please change this thread title to "Save Our Plaza With A Walgreens". Thanks

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by WoodDraw » Wed May 30, 2018 11:43 am

MidtownCat wrote:Mods please change this thread title to "Save Our Plaza With A Walgreens". Thanks
The entire idea that the plaza neighborhood just needs a pharmacy to fix itself is weird. The idea that anyone here is against it is equally weird. Like, just build it?

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by kboish » Wed May 30, 2018 12:01 pm

There is a "last word syndrome" that happens on the forum that causes people to continuously repeat themselves because they feel if they don't get the last word in they somehow haven't gotten their point across.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by mykn » Wed May 30, 2018 12:30 pm

kboish wrote:There is a "last word syndrome" that happens on the forum that causes people to continuously repeat themselves because they feel if they don't get the last word in they somehow haven't gotten their point across.
See: Window Glass

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by swid » Wed May 30, 2018 12:44 pm

I'm too lazy to upload the image to illustrate, but this Futurama quote (thanks, Morbotron!) sums up a good number of the discussions here in general...and one of our prolific posters in particular.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by bobbyhawks » Wed May 30, 2018 1:48 pm

kboish wrote:There is a "last word syndrome" that happens on the forum that causes people to continuously repeat themselves because they feel if they don't get the last word in they somehow haven't gotten their point across.
Totally agree about "last word syndrome." I've never had that problem, though. "Last word syndrome" is definitely a thing, that I don't have a problem with, but it exists, but not for me.

earthling
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling » Wed May 30, 2018 2:05 pm

And it's natural to happen when someone posts a response that doesn't appear to grasp the point. Nobody said The Plaza needs a drugstore to save it, the position has been that KC needs more full circle pedestrian scale living and a walkable drugstore/market within district is a core component of that - The Plaza is just a couple stores away from expanding a new urban neighborhood for KC. Though the Plaza has online challenges that catering to the neighborhood could help with or some other way to re-invent itself.

The glass thing with P&L Towers also poorly twisted as the (reasonable) criticism that triggered many pages of repeating discussion was about targeting 6 utilitarian buildings looking about the same - that happens to be using same glass, not about the glass itself. But many fixated on it being a glass discussion that wasn't the overall point.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by kcmiz » Wed May 30, 2018 8:54 pm

Plaza needs greater density to save it, both residential and commercial. Up-zoning of the entire Main corridor to encourage TOD must happen for streetcar Phase II to really be successful.

The NIMBY mentality of "Saving the Plaza bowl" non-sense needs to end.

:-

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by mgsports » Thu May 31, 2018 8:34 am

Untuckit needs to come.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by flyingember » Thu May 31, 2018 8:53 am

kcmiz wrote:Plaza needs greater density to save it, both residential and commercial. Up-zoning of the entire Main corridor to encourage TOD must happen for streetcar Phase II to really be successful.

The NIMBY mentality of "Saving the Plaza bowl" non-sense needs to end.

:-
The Plaza is ONLY the flat part of the bowl. If you don't save the bowl you are saving nothing.

I'm more and more thinking people don't know what the Plaza is and it shows why I say that focusing off of the plaza is just as important.

I made a map showing property ownership. The large orange area is The Country Club Plaza.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VaTm9 ... sp=sharing

Nothing along Main is part of the Plaza for example. None of the big officer towers are part of the Plaza shopping center. None of the residential buildings is on the Plaza.

You can very quickly see why I say that one of the best things we can do for neighborhoods is ignoring it and focusing on adding retail just off of the Plaza. There's tons of opportunities to add new neighborhood retail that's actually closer to residents and it's all still reachable from the parking garages and Cleaver streetcar stop.

I didn't even mark all the opportunities available, nothing east of Main, for example.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by WoodDraw » Thu May 31, 2018 9:10 am

I again think you're missing the point. We'd all love the plaza to become an urban neighborhood, but I'm saying there are systemic issues that keep it from getting more urban.

I agree with the "last word syndrome" point though, so I'll recuse myself from here and let it return to actual plaza movings. Open another thread and I'll argue with you there :)

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by WSPanic » Thu May 31, 2018 9:16 am

mgsports wrote:Untuckit needs to come.
4-words people. It can all be said in four words.

Quit spinning your wheels.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling » Thu May 31, 2018 10:33 am

WoodDraw wrote:I again think you're missing the point. We'd all love the plaza to become an urban neighborhood, but I'm saying there are systemic issues that keep it from getting more urban.

I agree with the "last word syndrome" point though, so I'll recuse myself from here and let it return to actual plaza movings. Open another thread and I'll argue with you there :)
Mods can move related past posts to thread below if it's such a concern to talk about ideas to improve the Plaza in this thread. I've continued last post over to this one..

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=20330&p=565582&hil ... ge#p565582

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by flyingember » Thu May 31, 2018 10:57 am

WoodDraw wrote:I again think you're missing the point. We'd all love the plaza to become an urban neighborhood, but I'm saying there are systemic issues that keep it from getting more urban.

I agree with the "last word syndrome" point though, so I'll recuse myself from here and let it return to actual plaza movings. Open another thread and I'll argue with you there :)
I'm not missing the point. I don't get that people are so fixated on changing the Plaza. It's clearly doing quite well if it can pull Nordstrom away from JoCo. There's still empty lots outside of the Plaza that would provide a shorter walk for residents and get the same result for people. Why not encourage a nice retail space at 4th and Penn? Why is being one block away from the Plaza such a big deal? Can people not walk one extra block? (or one block less for people from the north)

A Walgreens would be a great fit at 47th and Belleview off the Plaza and keep the CVS at 51st and suddenly the area has two drug stores and more people benefit. Neither would be on the Plaza. How is that a problem?

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by WoodDraw » Thu May 31, 2018 11:34 am

flyingember wrote:
WoodDraw wrote:I again think you're missing the point. We'd all love the plaza to become an urban neighborhood, but I'm saying there are systemic issues that keep it from getting more urban.

I agree with the "last word syndrome" point though, so I'll recuse myself from here and let it return to actual plaza movings. Open another thread and I'll argue with you there :)
I'm not missing the point. I don't get that people are so fixated on changing the Plaza. It's clearly doing quite well if it can pull Nordstrom away from JoCo. There's still empty lots outside of the Plaza that would provide a shorter walk for residents and get the same result for people. Why not encourage a nice retail space at 4th and Penn? Why is being one block away from the Plaza such a big deal? Can people not walk one extra block? (or one block less for people from the north)

A Walgreens would be a great fit at 47th and Belleview off the Plaza and keep the CVS at 51st and suddenly the area has two drug stores and more people benefit. Neither would be on the Plaza. How is that a problem?
Okay, I hearby encourage it. That should do it.

I'm the one advocating for higher density and getting rid of the bowl here. My whole point, about you missing the point, is that the plaza itself won't change, not that it shouldn't.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by empires228 » Thu May 31, 2018 6:15 pm

flyingember wrote:
WoodDraw wrote:I again think you're missing the point. We'd all love the plaza to become an urban neighborhood, but I'm saying there are systemic issues that keep it from getting more urban.

I agree with the "last word syndrome" point though, so I'll recuse myself from here and let it return to actual plaza movings. Open another thread and I'll argue with you there :)
I'm not missing the point. I don't get that people are so fixated on changing the Plaza. It's clearly doing quite well if it can pull Nordstrom away from JoCo. There's still empty lots outside of the Plaza that would provide a shorter walk for residents and get the same result for people. Why not encourage a nice retail space at 4th and Penn? Why is being one block away from the Plaza such a big deal? Can people not walk one extra block? (or one block less for people from the north)

A Walgreens would be a great fit at 47th and Belleview off the Plaza and keep the CVS at 51st and suddenly the area has two drug stores and more people benefit. Neither would be on the Plaza. How is that a problem?
The owners of the plaza have a long standing relationship with Nordstrom and are building them a new smaller store with cheaper rent to lure them over. That’s a fact. CBL on the other hand doesn’t manage high end malls and is currently running some of their best malls into the ground.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by normalthings » Thu May 31, 2018 6:55 pm

I thought the current plaza owners operate a number of high end malls?

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