Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by WoodDraw » Thu May 24, 2018 4:48 pm

Hmm, I think selling residents would be harder than selling the developer. The plaza in the most NIMBY of NIMBY places I know.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by nomadcowatbk » Thu May 24, 2018 5:33 pm

MidtownCat wrote:
taxi wrote:This is a stupid conversation. The Plaza owners could care less if you forgot your toothbrush. Use your finger.


The Plaza is in a retail death spiral and people are worried about where tourists are going to get some mouthwash. It's insane.
and many hotels now offer that stuff, some even have mini convenience stores in the lobby

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by flyingember » Thu May 24, 2018 9:26 pm

WoodDraw wrote:Hmm, I think selling residents would be harder than selling the developer. The plaza in the most NIMBY of NIMBY places I know.
I’m not sure changing the plaza fixes the bigger problem. What’s needed is to expand retail outside of the plaza. The Whole Foods store is a great example of this. We should be encouraging retail at 50th and Main so people to the south don’t need to visit the plaza. There should be more retail at 46th and Broadway or 45th and Summit.

I’m not saying to do nothing about the plaza but look at this as an urbanism problem. These neighborhood are have too much single use even as they go denser.

It’s yet another example that zoning needs to change to require mixed use and people will start to see their immediate surroundings as being more than a place they don’t want more traffic from while they go grocery shopping by car.

We need to make it so area plans, zoning, overlays and such come with greater neighborhood consensus, the plans have teeth and the city doesn’t give variances to not meet the plan like allowing more parking, less density or such,

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by WoodDraw » Fri May 25, 2018 12:46 am

flyingember wrote:
WoodDraw wrote:Hmm, I think selling residents would be harder than selling the developer. The plaza in the most NIMBY of NIMBY places I know.
I’m not sure changing the plaza fixes the bigger problem. What’s needed is to expand retail outside of the plaza. The Whole Foods store is a great example of this. We should be encouraging retail at 50th and Main so people to the south don’t need to visit the plaza. There should be more retail at 46th and Broadway or 45th and Summit.

I’m not saying to do nothing about the plaza but look at this as an urbanism problem. These neighborhood are have too much single use even as they go denser.

It’s yet another example that zoning needs to change to require mixed use and people will start to see their immediate surroundings as being more than a place they don’t want more traffic from while they go grocery shopping by car.

We need to make it so area plans, zoning, overlays and such come with greater neighborhood consensus, the plans have teeth and the city doesn’t give variances to not meet the plan like allowing more parking, less density or such,
I read this twice and I'm still still not sure what it means. I think you keep missing the problem, that the plaza doesn't want more density.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by flyingember » Fri May 25, 2018 6:46 am

The plaza is just about 13 square blocks.

80%ish of the retail being in a single small area is giving all the power to a single property owner. They need more competition basically. Instead of focusing on one shopping center let’s think about urban mixed use and push for it being mandatory in the surrounding neighborhoods instead. Expand the focus to way more than this one tiny area with very few residents in it, just one residential building is actually part of the plaza

Like CVS could stay at 50th outside the plaza and a Walgreens could also open outside the plaza at 46th. Much better than making people from two neighborhoods all visit the plaza for this need.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by KCPowercat » Fri May 25, 2018 8:37 am

One of the big benefits from moving to downtown from the plaza is walkable resident amenities (CVS cosentinos, etc). The thought that a pharmacy is below the plaza is laughable...and people against it mostly comes from the driving KC residents who think the 50th and main CVS and the Westport grocery store are close enough.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by KCPowercat » Fri May 25, 2018 8:40 am

I think 5th avenue is in trouble...I just found 3 Duane Reade pharmacy within the same area of the plaza....and one is right next to the Burberry and LV.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling » Fri May 25, 2018 8:49 am

KCPowercat wrote:One of the big benefits from moving to downtown from the plaza is walkable resident amenities (CVS cosentinos, etc). The thought that a pharmacy is below the plaza is laughable...and people against it mostly comes from the driving KC residents who think the 50th and main CVS and the Westport grocery store are close enough.
Yeah 99% of KC doesn't truly understand pedestrian scale living. Is cringing to hear suburban posters make urban design suggestions, is clear they've never lived it. And many who do move into city bring car culture with them, that's how we end up with a mega QuikTrip in Westport (edit: and drivethru Jimmy Johns downtown). Can understand suburbanites may just want to keep Plaza just as a shopping center but KC has very little full circle pedestrian scale living and The Plaza is one of the best shots at expanding urban living very quickly - and it used to have drugstore/market but can still do better. Is bizarre that bringing up giving up 2 retail spaces on Plaza for neighborhood amenities actually gets resistance or pessimism, wtf.
Last edited by earthling on Fri May 25, 2018 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling » Fri May 25, 2018 8:51 am

KCPowercat wrote:I think 5th avenue is in trouble...I just found 3 Duane Reade pharmacy within the same area of the plaza....and one is right next to the Burberry and LV.
Gasp, 5th Avenue is now trashy. Michigan Ave has many drugstores as well.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by tower » Fri May 25, 2018 9:45 am

earthling wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:I think 5th avenue is in trouble...I just found 3 Duane Reade pharmacy within the same area of the plaza....and one is right next to the Burberry and LV.
Gasp, 5th Avenue is now trashy. Michigan Ave has many drugstores as well.
The problem with using Michigan Ave as point of comparison is that it is a part of the River North area, and it is a pleasant walk from the nearby hotels. Also, pedestrians have priority.

On the Plaza, most of the hotels are south of Brush Creek, which is surrounded by a car sewer, and to the north is a steep hill. Cars are clearly the priority, and walking to or from the Plaza is uncomfortable. The Plaza feels much more disconnected from the area around it.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by KCPowercat » Fri May 25, 2018 10:11 am

There are two hotels south of brush Creek. I'm guessing there are 5x the hotel rooms north of brush Creek. (Marriott, courtyard, Fontaine, Sheraton, Hampton, residence inn, extended stay, holiday inn)

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by KCPowercat » Fri May 25, 2018 10:13 am

earthling wrote:
KCPowercat wrote:One of the big benefits from moving to downtown from the plaza is walkable resident amenities (CVS cosentinos, etc). The thought that a pharmacy is below the plaza is laughable...and people against it mostly comes from the driving KC residents who think the 50th and main CVS and the Westport grocery store are close enough.
Yeah 99% of KC doesn't truly understand pedestrian scale living. Is cringing to hear suburban posters make urban design suggestions, is clear they've never lived it. And many who do move into city bring car culture with them, that's how we end up with a mega QuikTrip in Westport (edit: and drivethru Jimmy Johns downtown). Can understand suburbanites may just want to keep Plaza just as a shopping center but KC has very little full circle pedestrian scale living and The Plaza is one of the best shots at expanding urban living very quickly - and it used to have drugstore/market but can still do better. Is bizarre that bringing up giving up 2 retail spaces on Plaza for neighborhood amenities actually gets resistance or pessimism, wtf.
I don't get it either. The pharmacy demand isn't for tourists...it's for residents....but as a tourist in other cities, a convenient pharmacy is a great amenity....look how many have popped up on the LV strip

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by KCLover » Fri May 25, 2018 10:30 am

KCPowercat wrote:I don't get it either. The pharmacy demand isn't for tourists...it's for residents....but as a tourist in other cities, a convenient pharmacy is a great amenity....look how many have popped up on the LV strip
There's either a CVS or a Walgreens every block on the Vegas strip these days and that has to be some of the highest real estate in America. Granted they have a lottttt more foot traffic than the plaza does, but I don't see why the plaza couldn't support one.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by MidtownCat » Tue May 29, 2018 1:08 pm

Whether or not the Plaza has a silly drugstore has nothing to do with it dying a slow death as one of the jewels of our city.

Some people on here apparently now want it to be Brookside.

Some would like to see it return to being THE premier retail/shopping district in the city and a true regional destination. It was for decades and is neither at this stage. A drugstore isn’t going to fix that.

Why some on here are obsessed over this is amazing.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling » Tue May 29, 2018 1:14 pm

Why some discourage it is amazing, we're talking just a couple retail spots out of over 100. Not as a 'savior' but as a key benefit that people looking for true urban living want within walking distance. The Plaza used to have both a drugstore and a market - and at one time dry cleaner, barber shop, video store, etc. Is understandable that those who don't live near it don't get it but to actually discourage it is baffling. If a pro urban site is discouraging this, KCMO as a whole is going to have trouble building up true pedestrian scale living. There isn't much in KCMO, would be easy to adapt Plaza toward it again while still maintaining as a shopping destination.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by flyingember » Tue May 29, 2018 1:30 pm

earthling wrote:Why some discourage it is amazing, we're talking just a couple retail spots out of over 100. Not as a 'savior' but as a key benefit that people looking for true urban living want within walking distance. The Plaza used to have both a drugstore and a market - and at one time dry cleaner, barber shop, video store, etc. Is understandable that those who don't live near it don't get it but to actually discourage it is baffling. If a pro urban site is discouraging this, KCMO as a whole is going to have trouble building up true pedestrian scale living. There isn't much in KCMO, would be easy to adapt Plaza toward it again while still maintaining as a shopping destination.
I think the plaza can be a great high end shopping + office center and fill the surrounding neighborhoods where people live with neighborhood amenities.

Why not have 200 retail spaces, 100 of them in the blocks outside the plaza?

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling » Tue May 29, 2018 1:36 pm

^That would be great but setting aside a few existing spots for amenities doesn't take much effort to add another neighborhood in KC that has full circle pedestrian scale living (as Plaza once had). What is with the obsession keeping amenities out of the Plaza? Is odd to go as far as to discourage it. And look at all the hotel/convention people that hit Consentino's downtown. Mixed use helps develop true urbanity, not isolated functions per area.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by beautyfromashes » Tue May 29, 2018 1:40 pm

MidtownCat wrote: Some would like to see it return to being THE premier retail/shopping district in the city and a true regional destination. It was for decades and is neither at this stage.
Amazon is “THE premier retail/shopping district in the city” now. Time for The Plaza to evolve into something new.

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by earthling » Tue May 29, 2018 1:45 pm

^ +1

Evolve into something like this while still having a shopping element...
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=20330&p=565582

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Re: Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

Post by taxi » Tue May 29, 2018 4:03 pm

earthling, your pro urban fellow penpals are not discouraging it, they are just being realistic. CVS isn't going to abandon what they likely are at least part owner of, a few blocks away and with their own generous parking lot, to put tons of money into a new space that is the highest rent around. And the Plaza owners are very likely not concerned with creating a walkable neighborhood. They don't own hardly any of the residences nearby, probably none of them, they probably don't walk themselves, and they are concerned with one thing – servicing their debt and hopefully making a profit. Their leasing agents are thinking the same thing. They are going to lease space for the most they can, for the quickest they can.

You can pine all you want about what the Plaza used to be, when it was owned by a visionary capitalist (among other names), and that was then. It is a different beast now with different and multiple owners, different interests, and a retail landscape that has very low profit margins. There is a reason the drugstore and dry cleaner left the Plaza.

I would wager that we will have drones and/or robots delivering drugstore goods to our doors and within minutes long before we will see another drugstore in the Plaza proper.

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