KCPD East Campus

[chaglang]

http://www.pitch.com/kansascity/kcpd-ea ... id=2970344

Hmmm... I find the overall attitude towards the situation displayed in this article to be annoying. Why is half the conversation in this article race related?

And also, who exactly thinks this will make the neighborhood better. It will breed paranoia and anger, and displace residents. I thought this was for the better of the neighborhood...

Jeez, I had not seen those renderings in a while. I forgot how abysmal the design is. If you set out to design a building that was overtly unfriendly to the neighborhood, you couldn't do much better than that. The inefficient land use, the oceans of parking, the huge setbacks all suck. Is this still a Helix project? They usually do better work than this. I'm embarassed for them.

[SWFan]

It should make the neighborhood better in terms of crime statistics. I just don't see how having lots of cops coming and going at all times day/night wouldn't reduce crime. Otherwise its likely not going to do a lot. I live up by Liberty on the KCMO side and the KCPD training facility and the Shoal Creek Division are less than two miles south of my house. It hasn't created paranoia or anger for me or any of my neighbors.

I'm just sick of many of the inner city neighborhoods complaining about all the violent crime, yet no one will come forward as a witness when one happens, people don't get outside their homes to let the criminals know they are watching. They want someone else to come in and wave a magic wand and make it go away with no consequence to their lives other than reduced crime. Well, sorry, it doesn't work that way. So now we have the city taking over a block as their magic wand and everyone is crying boo hoo.

As long as I got fair market value for my house and if they paid for my movers to boot I would have no problem selling my house to the government under eminent domain. Heck, most of these people's houses probably weren't even sellable, I consider them lucky to get money to move the heck out of there. The people who should be ticked are those who weren't in the eminent domain region and are still stuck living there.

[chaglang]

I live up by Liberty on the KCMO side and the KCPD training facility and the Shoal Creek Division are less than two miles south of my house. It hasn't created paranoia or anger for me or any of my neighbors.

What's the racial makeup of Shoal Creek?

I'm just sick of many of the inner city neighborhoods complaining about all the violent crime, yet no one will come forward as a witness when one happens, people don't get outside their homes to let the criminals know they are watching. They want someone else to come in and wave a magic wand and make it go away with no consequence to their lives other than reduced crime. Well, sorry, it doesn't work that way. So now we have the city taking over a block as their magic wand and everyone is crying boo hoo.

Good point about the snitching. Complaining about violent crime and then not cooperating with the police is idiotic. But it's not 1 block. It's 4 blocks. And I don't think it's fair to say that because a person don't come forward as witnesses of violent crimes, they have less of a say about whether their house gets bulldozed.

As long as I got fair market value for my house and if they paid for my movers to boot I would have no problem selling my house to the government under eminent domain. Heck, most of these people's houses probably weren't even sellable, I consider them lucky to get money to move the heck out of there. The people who should be ticked are those who weren't in the eminent domain region and are still stuck living there.

Well that's kind of arrogant. Note that many of these people don't want to move. They want to stay in their homes. This is something that is being done to them, and they have little control over it. I'm guessing that they don't feel very lucky right now. If the KCPD and the city were actually concrened about not screwing the neighborhood, they would either pay reaplcement cost (instead of fair market value) or pay to have the houses physically moved to one of the vacant lots in the area. A $15k fair market value payment isn't some golden ticket out of the ghetto because it won't buy much of anything outside of that area.

[flyingember]

http://www.pitch.com/kansascity/kcpd-ea ... id=2970344

Hmmm... I find the overall attitude towards the situation displayed in this article to be annoying. Why is half the conversation in this article race related?

And also, who exactly thinks this will make the neighborhood better. It will breed paranoia and anger, and displace residents. I thought this was for the better of the neighborhood...

Jeez, I had not seen those renderings in a while. I forgot how abysmal the design is. If you set out to design a building that was overtly unfriendly to the neighborhood, you couldn't do much better than that. The inefficient land use, the oceans of parking, the huge setbacks all suck. Is this still a Helix project? They usually do better work than this. I'm embarassed for them.

the setback is a modern security style. you add space and block vehicles at the street with something like concrete posts.

[chaglang]

http://www.pitch.com/kansascity/kcpd-ea ... id=2970344

Hmmm... I find the overall attitude towards the situation displayed in this article to be annoying. Why is half the conversation in this article race related?

And also, who exactly thinks this will make the neighborhood better. It will breed paranoia and anger, and displace residents. I thought this was for the better of the neighborhood...

Jeez, I had not seen those renderings in a while. I forgot how abysmal the design is. If you set out to design a building that was overtly unfriendly to the neighborhood, you couldn't do much better than that. The inefficient land use, the oceans of parking, the huge setbacks all suck. Is this still a Helix project? They usually do better work than this. I'm embarassed for them.

the setback is a modern security style. you add space and block vehicles at the street with something like concrete posts.

They're cops. They're all armed. They shouldn't need more security features than an office building.

[pash]

.

[Demosthenes]

Sadly most people will think this is a great idea, because of course all these cops will stop the crime and make the neighborhood great, right? This is deceiving, and most people don't pick up on these sort of details. These authority figures will not stop crime. If anything they will breed contempt for the greater destruction of their neighborhood. A better way to slow the crime would be to build this police station harmoniously within the neighborhood. A smaller scale would blend in better, and people may not be opposed to living next to it. Then slowly over time the improved safety will work its magic over these homes and maybe new people will actually want to move into the neighborhood.

Instead, Building a campus like this will stick out like a sore thumb. No one will want to ever live near it. You destroyed all the homes in the neighborhood, so it ceases to exist. You made the residents angry by throwing a big "fu" in their faces. This is disgusting urban renewal all over again.

In reality, the design of this campus being a cause for debate has nothing to do with city nerds geeking out over the look of our city. It will look this way to the novice. But really this is well-informed people realizing that a project of this scale, suburban in nature, thrown into a declining urban neighborhood by the government, will NEVER work. Never has, never will. This is urban planning 101. It is really sad that so many people will applaud what is truly just our government taking the easy road on this situation.

[flyingember]

They're cops. They're all armed. They shouldn't need more security features than an office building.

security against bombs. you know, like an IED

and that is the only reason for a big suburban building.

[chaglang]

They're cops. They're all armed. They shouldn't need more security features than an office building.

security against bombs. you know, like an IED

and that is the only reason for a big suburban building.

I'm not aware of any police departments being bombed recently. And the recent KCPD patrol station designs doesn't indicate that this is really something they're worried about. They have large expanses of windows, and vehicular traffic is able to pull up to within a few feet of the front of the building. If this was being built in Brookside/Waldo, you can bet that it would be designed to make it blend in with the neighborhood. It's like they don't understand that the message the building sends is "we don't trust any of you".

[SWFan]

What's the racial makeup of Shoal Creek?

Don't know, so I can't answer that other than to say this urban core is predominantly black and I'd say my area is predominantly white. As to actual mix in either I don't know. Are you asserting there is a natural animosity between police and black people?

Good point about the snitching. Complaining about violent crime and then not cooperating with the police is idiotic. But it's not 1 block. It's 4 blocks. And I don't think it's fair to say that because a person don't come forward as witnesses of violent crimes, they have less of a say about whether their house gets bulldozed.

I don't really like seeing the word "snitching" used here since it has the connotation of something immoral. I'm sorry, but if you witness a crime and report it, then testify to what you saw that is not snitching. Snitching in my opinion only applies to criminals telling on other criminals and is only seen as a bad thing if you're a criminal.

Well that's kind of arrogant. Note that many of these people don't want to move. They want to stay in their homes.

It wasn't meant to be arrogant, though I guess I can see your point. Still, the only time I wouldn't accept a forced move order with compensation is if I had just spent significant dollars on my house that isn't being properly compensated in the FMV calculation. For instance, say in this urban core area the average FMV for a particular house is $50,000 and that average price is on houses with 10 year old or older HVAC systems. But say I had just spent $10,000 to get a new high efficiency HVAC system. If they still only offered me $50K I would be ticked and would want to fight the amount. However, if the appraisers came back and said house is $50K, but has $10K of recent upgrades, offer $60K I still think I would be fine.

It is inconvenient to have to move, but if the city is offering to pay a moving company that takes a big bite out of that inconvenience.

I also have to say that I have never felt the need to be tied to a property. For instance, the house I grew up in for 20 years was sold by my parents when they retired. Didn't bother me one bit. I've personally owned three different houses in the last 19 years and I looked forward to the move because each time I was moving up to a better house.

If these folks end up moving to a worse house and/or neighborhood then I may have more sympathy for them. But as I said, it seems they are in a pretty crappy neighborhood with a house that probably wasn't sellable if they decided they wanted to move on their own. Now they have cash and can move to a similar style house in another part of the city with less crime. There is a lot of affordably cheap housing in south Gladstone, NKC, Riverside, Independence, etc. And it gets them out of the famously horrible KCMO school district if they happen to have kids.

[Demosthenes]

Are you asserting there is a natural animosity between police and black people?

Yes. Talk to any black person about the police and you will find this out. Almost every black person I know has a story about a time they were pulled over for no reason at all. Unfortunately the police force is full of racism. Sexism too.

[chaglang]

I don't really like seeing the word "snitching" used here since it has the connotation of something immoral. I'm sorry, but if you witness a crime and report it, then testify to what you saw that is not snitching. Snitching in my opinion only applies to criminals telling on other criminals and is only seen as a bad thing if you're a criminal.

I should have been more clear and referred to it as the stop snitching phenomenon. I also don't think that the fact that this neighborhood is (reportedly, because I am making an assumption here) uncooperative with the KCPD should have any bearing on the validity of their objections to this development.

It wasn't meant to be arrogant, though I guess I can see your point. Still, the only time I wouldn't accept a forced move order with compensation is if I had just spent significant dollars on my house that isn't being properly compensated in the FMV calculation. For instance, say in this urban core area the average FMV for a particular house is $50,000 and that average price is on houses with 10 year old or older HVAC systems. But say I had just spent $10,000 to get a new high efficiency HVAC system. If they still only offered me $50K I would be ticked and would want to fight the amount. However, if the appraisers came back and said house is $50K, but has $10K of recent upgrades, offer $60K I still think I would be fine.

It is inconvenient to have to move, but if the city is offering to pay a moving company that takes a big bite out of that inconvenience.

I also have to say that I have never felt the need to be tied to a property. For instance, the house I grew up in for 20 years was sold by my parents when they retired. Didn't bother me one bit. I've personally owned three different houses in the last 19 years and I looked forward to the move because each time I was moving up to a better house.

If these folks end up moving to a worse house and/or neighborhood then I may have more sympathy for them. But as I said, it seems they are in a pretty crappy neighborhood with a house that probably wasn't sellable if they decided they wanted to move on their own. Now they have cash and can move to a similar style house in another part of the city with less crime. There is a lot of affordably cheap housing in south Gladstone, NKC, Riverside, Independence, etc. And it gets them out of the famously horrible KCMO school district if they happen to have kids.

Look, I would never live at 27th and Prospect, but I have a tremendous amount of sympathy for them because they don't want to leave. You're not emotionally tied to a piece of property, but each time you've moved it's been your choice, and to a better house. That's upward mobility. What is happening with this project is closer to the slum clearances that were done in the 1960's. The studies that were done afterward showed that the displaced residents had tremendous difficulty adjusting to new surroundings. It was far more than a temporary inconvenience. They felt powerless, humiliated, and isolated by the forced move. Their social networks were wrecked. Many of them relied on public transportation, so they were further from their jobs and friends. This persisted for years.

Say they did take the FMV payment. Houses sell over there for between $5k and $20k, on average. I don't know what $20k would get you on the housing market that would be worth buying. Probably not much, and certainly not a similar style house in a better neighborhood. After fees and closing costs, you're looking for a $15k house. Good luck with that.

[SWFan]

Say they did take the FMV payment. Houses sell over there for between $5k and $20k, on average. I don't know what $20k would get you on the housing market that would be worth buying. Probably not much, and certainly not a similar style house in a better neighborhood. After fees and closing costs, you're looking for a $15k house. Good luck with that.

Do we know what some of the offers were?

Checking real estate web sites around that corner there are some bank-owned foreclosures listed in the $30's, but there are also some boarded up, nasty looking places under $10K listed as well.

I'm assuming the people complaining are proud home owners and thus their property has been well maintained. If they were being offered prices that were comparable to nearby foreclosed and abandoned homes I would agree they would be getting screwed.

I couldn't find an owner occupied for sale in that area to compare with. What really matters are the comps and a run-down, boarded up place is not a comp to a well maintained home. If there aren't any comps in that several block area, the appraisers would have moved out their search for comps, which should help those folks with the appraised value.

And I guess it depends on the person's means, but just because they got $x cash for their house doesn't mean they are limited to buy a house after expenses equal to the amount of the cash they got.

In NKC alone I found roughly 40 homes for sale under $50,000.

[SWFan]

Look, I would never live at 27th and Prospect, but I have a tremendous amount of sympathy for them because they don't want to leave. You're not emotionally tied to a piece of property, but each time you've moved it's been your choice, and to a better house. That's upward mobility. What is happening with this project is closer to the slum clearances that were done in the 1960's. The studies that were done afterward showed that the displaced residents had tremendous difficulty adjusting to new surroundings. It was far more than a temporary inconvenience. They felt powerless, humiliated, and isolated by the forced move. Their social networks were wrecked. Many of them relied on public transportation, so they were further from their jobs and friends. This persisted for years.

I can certainly see how a person would feel powerless. I don't know about humiliated or isolated, but I can see powerless. I've had things happen in my life that were out of my control, and I know the feeling. I think almost every human being knows that feeling. You persevere and hopefully come out stronger and wiser for it.

To the other points I can only assume the real problem here is black people are afraid of white people and are afraid of having to move to a place that might be less black.

[chaglang]

Do we know what some of the offers were?

Checking real estate web sites around that corner there are some bank-owned foreclosures listed in the $30's, but there are also some boarded up, nasty looking places under $10K listed as well.

I'm assuming the people complaining are proud home owners and thus their property has been well maintained. If they were being offered prices that were comparable to nearby foreclosed and abandoned homes I would agree they would be getting screwed.

I couldn't find an owner occupied for sale in that area to compare with. What really matters are the comps and a run-down, boarded up place is not a comp to a well maintained home. If there aren't any comps in that several block area, the appraisers would have moved out their search for comps, which should help those folks with the appraised value.

And I guess it depends on the person's means, but just because they got $x cash for their house doesn't mean they are limited to buy a house after expenses equal to the amount of the cash they got.

In NKC alone I found roughly 40 homes for sale under $50,000.

No idea what the offers were. I do know the idea was floated about moving the houses. The KCPD initially considered moving 4 or 5 of the houses, then decided not to.

The issue with comps and what qualifies over there is why they should have been offered replacement cost for those houses. FWV is almost always less than what it would cost to buy a similar house.

[shinatoo]

I read they were given between 125% and 150% of FMV.

[flyingember]

I read they were given between 125% and 150% of FMV.

and something like based on the high value of multiple appraisals

[FangKC]

When I look at this project overall, at the very least, I can say that it was ill-conceived, anti-urban, and not green in concept in that it demolishes many houses.

First of all, I still don't understand why they need four city blocks for this project--bounded by Brooklyn and Prospect from E. 26th to E. 27th streets.



The project removes more than 65 houses. Talk about pissing people in the neighborhood off and creating a public relations problem. Yes there are vacant houses on those blocks, but there are also many that aren't in bad shape, and the vacant houses could be renovated.

Demolishing all those houses is not green in practice, and creates a lot of debris for landfill.

And it's all so unnecessary.

The designed structure is completely inappropriate for the neighborhood. It's a bunker design. The footprint of the building is also unnecessarily large. Why can't the building itself take up much less space just by making it a multi-story facility? Couldn't some of the parking be under the building?



When you look at the intersection of 27th and Prospect, there are a lot of adjacent vacant parcels. Those could be assembled to provide parking for the facility, and few or no buildings would have to be demolished to do it.

I find it outlandish that this police precinct takes up more land that the downtown Police Headquarters and Municipal Courts building.

As a public affairs professional, I can tell you that this approach only tells the neighborhood: "we don't really care about the neighborhood's concerns. We will have it 'our' way. We didn't try and take a more holistic approach to incorporating police efforts into the neighborhood so that you could benefit from increased security, but also use a method to improve the neighborhood without doing harm."

If I were advising the principals in this project, this would be my advice:

• *Build the structure on a smaller footprint and make it multi-story.
  
  *Build the structure on already vacant parcels, and place the some parking underneath the building, and around the structure on vacant parcels that already exist.
  
  *Possibly contract with a developer to make the project mixed-use incorporating the police facilities in a larger project that includes community space, retail, and new housing. The police could rent the space, and the developer would own the mixed-use project. Consider making the residential portion senior housing so that seniors live close to the police station. Put a day-care facility on-site.
  
  *Set up a volunteer program with police employees on site to create a program to have volunteers help rebuild neighborhood housing and improve those homes owned by people who cannot afford to renovate. This could be similar to Habitat for Humanity, but instead of building new, the focus would be on renovating what exists. It could also be smaller "curb appeal" projects to improve landscaping, remove ugly fences, rebuilt retaining walls, and paint.
  
  *Renovate some of the houses and have police officers live in them as residents.
  
  *Have the City work with the Kauffmann Entrepeneur program to set up small retail operations in the mixed-use project: a couple of restaurants, a coffee shop, dry cleaners, and hair salon.
  
  *Possibly add a branch of the Police Department Credit Union on-site, and open the banking services up to the neighborhood.
  
  *Add community space inside the building and hold classes there where people can get their GED.
  
  *Build a police athletic league facility nearby to help the kids in the neighborhood.
  
  *Introduce a police walking the streets program in the neighborhood to build trust and increase the sense of security.

Here is the area adjacent to the proposed project showing parcels along Prospect that are already mostly vacant.



Here is how I'd incorporate the police station into the existing neighborhood.



Here's an expanded plan where a developer creates a mixed-use plan renting space to the Police Department, as well as creating new retail and housing.

[shinatoo]

First time I've seen that. I threw up a little.

Architectural malpractice.

[FangKC]

Another thought.

I still don't understand why they are building a precinct station so close to the one at Linwood and Troost.

It seems a much better solution would have been to build the crime lab on vacant parcels around the precinct station at Linwood and Troost. Then build the new East Police Headquarters further to the east over by Emanuel Cleaver Boulevard and Leeds, or around Emanuel Cleaver Boulevard and 71 Highway (near the Murder Factory neighborhood) This would be a much greater distance from the Linwood/Troost precinct station.






Emanuel Cleaver II Boulevard near 71 Highway location

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Emanuel+ ... souri&z=17

Emanuel Cleaver II Boulevard at Bellefontaine

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Emanuel+ ... souri&z=17

Emanuel Cleaver II Boulevard at Leeds

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Emanuel+ ... souri&z=17