Westport

Discuss items in the urban core outside of Downtown as described above. Everything in the core including the east side (18th & Vine area), Northeast, Plaza, Westport, Brookside, Valentine, Waldo, 39th street, & the entire midtown area.
kboish
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by kboish »

flyingember wrote:Can you?

That idea looks good on paper but may not be practical. Height has additional costs as does historical preservation.

It's entirely possible they're being lazy and could do this, it's also possible they will need to drop the project and the lot gets used for parking for a decade.

At this point it's up to the city to find out which would be the case if they were to put back and require preservation.

The key point that needs to be made over and over is there are four options on the table with old buildings and only two are good ones
1. Maintain and build new around, on top of or such
2. Maintain and do nothing for who knows how long, the building could be empty for many years
3. The owners don't maintain and it needs to be torn down and becomes parking
4. Tear down and get a known project

The end goal isn't about historic preservation, it's about identifying the odds of the other three scenarios if we say no.
Right. And if you require the developer to do option 1, but then aren't willing to provide incentives or subsidies then you are going to get option 2 or 3.
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by pash »

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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by pash »

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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by flyingember »

pash wrote:Well, what's actually going to happen is that the developers will get their subsidies and the city won't require them to preserve the bank building or do anything to improve their design whatsoever. That's what our carte-blanche, subsidies-for-all development policy gets us. Maybe one of these days citizens and city leaders will figure out that developments subsidies should be quid pro quo—that is, they should actually buy us something, like preservation of historic buildings in a historic district.

I'm with earthling on this one. Say what you want about the bank building, but if it's not worth preserving, then there are at most a handful of buildings in Westport that are.
Historic does not equal valuable in monetary terms.

The monetary value is in a greater lease rate for the space in a preserved state that's greater than the cost to repair it. I'm not arguing this is the best outcome for this building but to gain 500+ units could be what produces the retail and office demand that saves every other building in the area.

It's a tough tradeoff between preservation of A building and preservation of the neighborhood. In this case I would choose the neighborhood. It's not a crazy fancy art deco structure that's the last of it's kind, it's a many times over renovated structure that's likely lost all interior historic value. It removes a decades-old parking lot and a drive thru on a key corner. It's not ideal but it's a great building if we have to lose an old building.
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by pash »

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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by mean »

pash wrote:It would be wonderful if we had some developers in this town who cared about architectural preservation, developers who might propose to incorporate this old bank building into a larger project rather than propose tearing it down wholesale and putting up more substantial but otherwise meritless apartment building in its place.
Crowdfund a developer into existence?

Only half joking.
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by chingon »

Is there a Benton mural in that bank?
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by WSPanic »

I believe there is a Benton mural in there. Or at least a mural that looks lke Benton's work. Not sure of its origin or history.
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by JBmidtown »

mean wrote:
pash wrote:It would be wonderful if we had some developers in this town who cared about architectural preservation, developers who might propose to incorporate this old bank building into a larger project rather than propose tearing it down wholesale and putting up more substantial but otherwise meritless apartment building in its place.
Crowdfund a developer into existence?

Only half joking.
This isn't a bad idea. A KCRAG economic cooperative!
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by chaglang »

pash wrote:I'm with earthling on this one. Say what you want about the bank building, but if it's not worth preserving, then there are at most a handful of buildings in Westport that are.
This brings up an interesting question. If you were to do a historic district in Westport, what are the boundaries? Is it Westport from Main-Pennsylvania, and then Pennsylvania from 40th to 42nd? Even in that zone there are a LOT of buildings that wouldn't contribute. Despite the facade restoration in the 70's, I doubt the bank would contribute- the modern facade is different from the 1915 photo, most notably in the entry design and number of windows. So there may not be that many buildings in Westport worth preserving - or, fewer than one would expect - there are better examples than this building.
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by DaveKCMO »

i'm a pragmatist when it comes to preservation. what are we replacing it with? does the replacement contribute positively to the urban form? the city's density problem is so significant that, for me, it trumps so many other complaints about "scale" or "history". that being said, i've fought to save a few historic buildings but most of them would have ended up -- or did end up -- as surface lots or parking garages.
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by pash »

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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by earthling »

DaveKCMO wrote:i'm a pragmatist when it comes to preservation. what are we replacing it with? does the replacement contribute positively to the urban form? the city's density problem is so significant that, for me, it trumps so many other complaints about "scale" or "history". that being said, i've fought to save a few historic buildings but most of them would have ended up -- or did end up -- as surface lots or parking garages.
I generally agree but the lot next to bank is so huge they can still do same size project, but orient longways E/W to Central St rather than N/S taking out the bank building. It can be a win-win for all. It's worth at least some effort to save building as building towards Central St. is a realistic scenario.
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by kcjak »

Does the bank own the land/building or just leasing it?
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by rxlexi »

Say what you want about the bank building, but if it's not worth preserving, then there are at most a handful of buildings in Westport that are.
The cynic in me feels exactly this way. There frankly isn't that much in Westport that I would vehemently fight to preserve - so much of the surrounding context has disappeared in central/western part of the hood that other than Pennsylvania/Kelly's block you're dealing with a mish-mash of parking lots, empty lots (St. Luke's) and structures that IMO could be replaced with say 14-story towers or developments such as this without too many tears shed.

I'm with Dave on this project - the Opus project is so such a positive contribution to the city as a whole, and such an improvement on existing, that I won't mourn the loss of the bank building.
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by earthling »

rxlexi wrote: I'm with Dave on this project - the Opus project is so such a positive contribution to the city as a whole, and such an improvement on existing, that I won't mourn the loss of the bank building.
However if they could do the same size building stretched back to Central instead of tearing down bank building, it is reasonable for anyone who opposes to at least pursue that option. Again I'm not a tree hugger on this one but with some effort the old bank could potentially be saved and become a cool restaurant space if gutted back to its brick interior. Better to give it a shot than let developers tear down Westport. The building is hardly in poor shape.

The developer also apparently owns the building along Westport with Wonderland, salon, antique store and the hookah bar and maybe the 303 building if I understand. If they tear down Westport Bank with no opposition, don't be surprised if they tear down that whole stretch of Old Westport. Is understandable those who don't live in Westport don't care but I do live in 64111 and don't want to see Westport turned into lego buildings - infill yes but not tear down functional old buildings. Especially when there are still plenty of lots to develop (or crap youngish buildings like Keith Coldsnow building down the street).
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by Critical_Mass »

earthling wrote: However if they could do the same size building stretched back to Central instead of tearing down bank building, it is reasonable for anyone who opposes to at least pursue that option. Again I'm not a tree hugger on this one but with some effort the old bank could potentially be saved and become a cool restaurant space if gutted back to its brick interior. Better to give it a shot than let developers tear down Westport. The building is hardly in poor shape.
You did see the plans and elevations, right? The rendering seen in this thread is a little misleading. The project is much larger than appears from that view. It is an 'L' shaped building which covers the entire site from the existing BoA building, stretching along the entire block along Broadway to Archibald Ave, and stretching along the entire block along Archibald to Central. Basically that entire block except for the stretch of commercial buildings fronting Westport Rd and the small parking lot behind Ragazza / Bistro 303 will be part of the project. To avoid demolition of the BoA building the developer would have to go taller or incorporate it, both of which add cost. Adding height may violate the MPAP. Incorporating it into the project (saving the two street facing elevations) may warrant heavy subsidies.
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by AlbertHammond »

I walked around the BofA building today. Its is great shape and the south and east walls are the original brick with lots of character. The north and west sides were re-visioned in the '70s, but in a very sympathetic way. The building may not be original all around, but it cannot be denied that it contributes strongly to the historic character of Westport. I feel its loss would be serious.

That said, I like this development proposal. Its a good size and architecturally decent. A little trendy, but not too much that is will be ugly in 30 years. My biggest dislike is with the 1/2 block long dead zone along Broadway. We have the same condition with the current parking/detention along that same area. I would hope that a revised proposal tries to activate this southern portion of Broadway.

Image
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by flyingember »

That's the back side of the parking garage. Probably can't activate it and meet parking minimums.

It would make sense that same requirement is why a smaller building and saving the historic structure doesn't work. They need the height on the corner to have the leasable space work.

Parking takes up about 60% of the first floor
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Re: Westport's fate post-P&L

Post by kcjak »

The developers of the apartment building on the BOA spot have been buying up property in Wichita. One of the development articles in today's Wichita Eagle refers to the BOA proposal and mentions they are planning on including a grocery (towards the end of the article in the link below).

http://www.kansas.com/news/business/biz ... 95023.html
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