Capping the Loop

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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DaveKCMO
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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby DaveKCMO » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:06 pm

why not just fill the trench with dirt and be done with it? the real problem is the freeway slicing up neighborhoods, not the fact that we need more park space.

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby dnweava » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:30 pm

I don't think the sunken freeways are a big deal, I live downtown and you barely notice the freeway when I cross the south loop and the northloop has a ton of vacant lots and parking lots that could be turned into parkland for much cheaper. The downtown highway I think needs removed is I35 between crossroads and westside but as much money is being spent on it right now we can assume it won't go away anytime soon. I would have rerouted that highway to the west bottoms

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby flyingember » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:34 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:why not just fill the trench with dirt and be done with it? the real problem is the freeway slicing up neighborhoods, not the fact that we need more park space.


That would be a problem. Downtown is the effective meeting place of two transcontinental routes. Should it have been done originally, no. But there needs to be an alternative provided if it's removed. To move i70, 435 south is over capacity, we don't want any more multimillion projects in Joco and all the i70 traffic helping sprawl there. Move to 435 north in Clayco and you just end up with sprawl there.

It's sad, but a major highway will loop downtown for many decades. If downtown highways had been local access service and the major route was away from downtown it would be different story.

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby shinatoo » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:18 pm

flyingember wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:why not just fill the trench with dirt and be done with it? the real problem is the freeway slicing up neighborhoods, not the fact that we need more park space.


That would be a problem. Downtown is the effective meeting place of two transcontinental routes. Should it have been done originally, no. But there needs to be an alternative provided if it's removed. To move i70, 435 south is over capacity, we don't want any more multimillion projects in Joco and all the i70 traffic helping sprawl there. Move to 435 north in Clayco and you just end up with sprawl there.

It's sad, but a major highway will loop downtown for many decades. If downtown highways had been local access service and the major route was away from downtown it would be different story.


You wouldn't be changing anything other than enlarging the loop so that the western edge is now in the west bottoms. Same functionality while restoring the natural cohesiveness of the west-side neighborhood to the Crossroads.
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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby pash » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:44 pm

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Last edited by pash on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby DaveKCMO » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:48 pm

pash wrote:Construction has begun on the Capital Crossing project in DC: http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local ... 34131.html

The project will cap I-395 between E Street & Mass Ave and 2nd & 3rd Streets NW, creating three new city blocks adjacent to the campus of Georgetown Law, just west of Union Station. The developers are building three million square feet of office and retail space in several buildings over the freeway.


building things that can be occupied. now there's a plan i could support!

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby archiKC » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:12 am

I as in Dallas a couple weekends ago, and while I generally dislike a lot of things in that city, I was extremely impressed with their covered freeway park, the Klyde Warren Park. I visited it on a Friday afternoon to find it completely full of life. People playing frisbee, a group doing yoga, crowds in line for food trucks lined with table and chairs, performers and bands playing, really everything you would expect to find in a well designed and maintained public space.

The key to this park though, is that it is fully staffed and managed. That allows them to coordinate public events, promote and market the park as a place to visit, and maintain its beauty and safety

http://www.klydewarrenpark.org/

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby moderne » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:17 pm


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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby DaveKCMO » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:20 pm

moderne wrote:Could have been even worse: http://www.linecreekloudmouth.com/files ... lan-22.pdf


i love the "park" in the east loop sandwiched between the freeway and two full city blocks of parking. success!

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby moderne » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:23 pm

The north south tunnel under Quality Hill would have saved West Terrace Park and Kersey Coates Drive. Maybe this should be revisited with the new Broadway Bridge interchange.

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby dnweava » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:32 pm

moderne wrote:Could have been even worse: http://www.linecreekloudmouth.com/files ... lan-22.pdf


that plan inspired me to try and redesign the loop. I also posted this on the transportation forum

Image

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby DaveKCMO » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:30 am

just remove the north loop and maybe turn it into a parkway (or a waterway!).

the north loop is redundant and all of the ramps are accident hot spots. rejoin the neighborhoods!

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby smh » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:32 am

DaveKCMO wrote:just remove the north loop and maybe turn it into a parkway (or a waterway!).

the north loop is redundant and all of the ramps are accident hot spots. rejoin the neighborhoods!



Linear park! Linear park!

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby TheBigChuckbowski » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:26 am

It could be an amazing park and would make for apartments with great views in those surrounding parking lots.

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby DaveKCMO » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:35 am

i would be very cautious about adding copious amounts of green space without a conservancy to maintain it. city needs things that add value and tax base.

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby Worn Copy » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:07 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:i would be very cautious about adding copious amounts of green space without a conservancy to maintain it. city needs things that add value and tax base.


You're not saying that parks don't add value / tax base, are you?

Not to be hasty before you clarify...but of course they do, and there are plethora empirical studies and examples to corroborate this. The Trust for Public Land established a causative link between bike/ped trail construction and increased property values. And the High Line, built in tandem with area rezoning, sparked billions in new development, not to mention 100+% increase in neighborhood property values since 2003. A lot of that increase would have happened anyway...but not all of it.

Etc.

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby Worn Copy » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:14 pm

DaveKCMO wrote:i would be very cautious about adding copious amounts of green space without a conservancy to maintain it. city needs things that add value and tax base.


Of course...considering how many abatements and TIFs there are downtown...this significantly limits the ability of the City to capture that value...

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby loftguy » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:46 pm

Worn Copy wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:i would be very cautious about adding copious amounts of green space without a conservancy to maintain it. city needs things that add value and tax base.


Of course...considering how many abatements and TIFs there are downtown...this significantly limits the ability of the City to capture that value...


A real stretch of an argument. I'm taking that as a request to be educated.

Past abatements have zero impact on future developments and most all TIF's have limits established on their breadth and lifetime.

Additionally, the perception that abatements and TIF's have held back revenues is false. Abatement has mostly been used to allow reuse of buildings that could very well have ended up demo'd, removing them from the tax rolls and leaving us with minimal taxes at empty or parking lot values, along with the immense cultural loss that occurs as buildings disappear. With abatement, the properties have mostly continued at their historic tax levels and now many of them have rolled off the abatement period and contributing full taxes into the future.

More completely, the use of abatement has provided for continued use of real estate in ways that generate city earnings taxes, sales tax revenues and a generally stimulated community and economy.

I'm open and can agree, that there are examples of misuse of abatement and TIF, over the years. However, a complete retrospective view allows ample evidence that these 'tools' have more than rewarded our city/county/library/school district/county.

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby Worn Copy » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:43 pm

loftguy wrote:
Worn Copy wrote:
DaveKCMO wrote:i would be very cautious about adding copious amounts of green space without a conservancy to maintain it. city needs things that add value and tax base.


Of course...considering how many abatements and TIFs there are downtown...this significantly limits the ability of the City to capture that value...


A real stretch of an argument. I'm taking that as a request to be educated.

Past abatements have zero impact on future developments and most all TIF's have limits established on their breadth and lifetime.

Additionally, the perception that abatements and TIF's have held back revenues is false. Abatement has mostly been used to allow reuse of buildings that could very well have ended up demo'd, removing them from the tax rolls and leaving us with minimal taxes at empty or parking lot values, along with the immense cultural loss that occurs as buildings disappear. With abatement, the properties have mostly continued at their historic tax levels and now many of them have rolled off the abatement period and contributing full taxes into the future.

More completely, the use of abatement has provided for continued use of real estate in ways that generate city earnings taxes, sales tax revenues and a generally stimulated community and economy.

I'm open and can agree, that there are examples of misuse of abatement and TIF, over the years. However, a complete retrospective view allows ample evidence that these 'tools' have more than rewarded our city/county/library/school district/county.


I'm not making the argument you think I'm making. I'm not arguing against the use of abatements or TIFs (although I do have issues with how they are being used in KC vs best practice / how they're used elsewhere, but that is a separate issue).

Public improvements (transportation infrastructure, parks) and private improvements (buildings, commercial / residential activities) typically increase adjacent property values. Not always, but usually. If the City were to, say, cap a stretch of 670, if a public place (park / plaza) was well-designed and if this improvement was coupled with other redevelopment efforts bordering the park to increase the adjacent mix of uses and residential density, and those developments actually happened, it would be reasonable to assume that the property values of the whole area would increase because people would want to work or live there. Commercial rents in walkable urban areas typically command a 75% premium over suburban locations, same for residential rents / sales prices. These premiums push up market prices = the property's assessed value (if the City has its shit together enough to do year reassessments, which often they do not...). People and businesses want to be located in walkable urban areas, so these premiums represent both the pent-up market demand and the intrinsic value people are willing to pay to be there.

So, let's just assume that a park over 670 will increase area property values. With that assumption, what I meant above is that any additional increase in area property values won't translate to additional tax revenue for the City for properties that are currently in abatement or a project TIF. The property owners would certainly benefit through increased rents, and the City might benefit through increased sales taxes etc, but as abatements freeze a parcel's assessment and project-TIFs divert property tax revenue from the general fund to service debt used to pay the developer to incentivize the development, the City won't capture any additional revenue from those parcels until these incentives expire. After they expire, yes, the City will benefit from this mythical amenity via increased tax assessments. But until then, no; at least not in terms of assessment revenue. For existing properties in the area that aren't under abatement / TIF, yes, the city could capture that value immediately. Of course, if they incentivize new developments with abatements / TIFs, well...you know the ramifications of that.

Some good additional reading on TIFs and abatements (it is not black and white).

https://www.lincolninst.edu/subcenters/ ... ancing.pdf
http://www.econsult.com/articles/090106_BIA_Report.pdf

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Re: Capping the Loop

Postby Worn Copy » Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:27 pm

harbinger911 wrote:Doing away with or capping the north loop is 10 million times more important than doing one single thing to the south loop.
At least the south loop is buried and somewhat limited in size, while the north loop is simply a wasteland of sprawled destruction.

The north loop is easily the worst designed and most egregious destruction of urban fabric in all (100%) of the known universe.
There is nothing more ugly, more unsafe, and more wasteful than the 20 sq blocks of urban land decimated by this monstrosity.
I dare anyone to show me a more hideous, wasteful and unsafe design anywhere on planet earth.
The person(s) responsible for this (including any KCMO politicians or engineers) should be forced to live under one of it's bridges for the rest of their life.
Look at any other major city in the country that built freeways through their downtowns - they ALL used elevated highways.
KC DID NOT - KC basically went "cheap" and dug huge sprawled trenches on the SW, east and north sides of the loop.
Elevating the highway is more expensive, but it keeps the street grid and building mostly intact.
KC's "trenched" freeways built a "moat" around downtown, basically cutting off every surrounding neighborhood and completely destroying the street grid.
Only the south loop was spared.
With the addition of 670 into Kansas the north loop is not needed. It wasn't needed when they built it!
Bulldoze the entire thing and rebuild the grid and infrastructure - they will come.


Other cities have trenches downtown. Vine Street Expressway and a section of I-95 in Phily. Sections of the Eisenhower and Stevenson in Chicago. Etc.


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