Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
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Critical_Mass
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

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I don't understand the problem with TIF here. PAC owns this land and it appears the land is 100% exempt from property taxes being assessed on it, according to the parcel viewer (if i am reading it correctly). So, zero dollars going to school district and library, and it's costing the owner nothing to hold on to the land. Clearly they are in no rush to sell. I think property taxes going to KCPS and the library assessed on 25% of a $63 million project is a good thing over the current situation.
Does it matter if the project is a one-star hotel vs a five-star? A high-end residential building vs an low-end? I don't think we can pick favorites. If a project needs some financial assistance to become feasible and it nets the city a little more property taxes in the short-term and much more in the long-term, I think that is a good thing.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

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Critical_Mass wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:11 pm I don't understand the problem with TIF here. PAC owns this land and it appears the land is 100% exempt from property taxes being assessed on it, according to the parcel viewer (if i am reading it correctly). So, zero dollars going to school district and library, and it's costing the owner nothing to hold on to the land. Clearly they are in no rush to sell. I think property taxes going to KCPS and the library assessed on 25% of a $63 million project is a good thing over the current situation.
Does it matter if the project is a one-star hotel vs a five-star? A high-end residential building vs an low-end? I don't think we can pick favorites. If a project needs some financial assistance to become feasible and it nets the city a little more property taxes in the short-term and much more in the long-term, I think that is a good thing.
Yes this is a no brainer on paper, I hope KC can overcome their more populist and regressive tendencies
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

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TheLastGentleman wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:23 pm Image
I wonder if the colors will be similar to the Loews Hotel. It looks like an interesting design but the tan colors are meh. Maybe they are doing this to honor the Performing Arts Center. I don't know. I assume CannonDesign is still part of this project.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

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Chris Stritzel wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:38 pm
TheLastGentleman wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:23 pm Image
I wonder if the colors will be similar to the Loews Hotel. It looks like an interesting design but the tan colors are meh. Maybe they are doing this to honor the Performing Arts Center. I don't know. I assume CannonDesign is still part of this project.
CannonDesign is involved still. The firm on the image is a Chinese render farm used by Cannon.
Last edited by normalthings on Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

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Critical_Mass wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:11 pm I don't understand the problem with TIF here. PAC owns this land and it appears the land is 100% exempt from property taxes being assessed on it, according to the parcel viewer (if i am reading it correctly). So, zero dollars going to school district and library, and it's costing the owner nothing to hold on to the land. Clearly they are in no rush to sell. I think property taxes going to KCPS and the library assessed on 25% of a $63 million project is a good thing over the current situation.
Does it matter if the project is a one-star hotel vs a five-star? A high-end residential building vs an low-end? I don't think we can pick favorites. If a project needs some financial assistance to become feasible and it nets the city a little more property taxes in the short-term and much more in the long-term, I think that is a good thing.
This TIF makes sense on paper. However, asking for TIF to be used on a "super luxury hotel in downtown" is extremely tone deaf. A sizable chunk of the populous questions TIF and some are currently trying to get TIF limited or removed (a misguided move IMHO). Approving this TIF would give those people the clear cut example they need to get their anti-TIF initiative passed. "City Hall is giving the richest of the rich money to build a 5-star hotel."
I don't support TIF for this project simply because of the chain reaction it would cause.

Additionally, I question the demand for a 5 star hotel in KC. IMHO, they should bundle the luxury hotel with a mid-level flag or a condo/apartment project to reduce risk and thus the need for incentives.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

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^ You sounds like a good politician worried about getting re-elected. Of course, you just hurt the city and it’s residents by cutting funding to public schools, killing construction jobs and hurting our ability to get major conventions and events in one emotional decision. But, feel good about yourself, you really stuck it to the rich...filthy animals.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

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beautyfromashes wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:05 am ^ You sounds like a good politician worried about getting re-elected. Of course, you just hurt the city and it’s residents by cutting funding to public schools, killing construction jobs and hurting our ability to get major conventions and events in one emotional decision. But, feel good about yourself, you really stuck it to the rich...filthy animals.
Again, to the 2% of the population that understands TIF this proposal makes sense. To everyone else, this looks like an abuse of TIF (it’s not IMHO).
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

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Agree with normal things.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

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yup yup
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by DaveKCMO »

beautyfromashes wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:05 am ^ You sounds like a good politician worried about getting re-elected. Of course, you just hurt the city and it’s residents by cutting funding to public schools, killing construction jobs and hurting our ability to get major conventions and events in one emotional decision. But, feel good about yourself, you really stuck it to the rich...filthy animals.
Good politicians work best when they're re-elected.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

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normalthings wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:40 am Again, to the 2% of the population that understands TIF this proposal makes sense. To everyone else, this looks like an abuse of TIF (it’s not IMHO).
Let's lay out the math of why TIF is better for a higher end hotel project than a low end project.

For the sake of argument let's assume that the construction jobs and permanent jobs are the same wages for a budget hotel of the same size and the materials used all have no taxes paid on them. We'll try to balance out this 5 star project to a 1 star project of the same scope.

This property is assessed today at $500k. They don't pay much in taxes today. Maybe $40k

TIF is going to result in it giving up some percentage of it's future property tax bill to pay for the project.

Now here's where we get into the real value and why TIF is appropriate

The city has a 7.5% hotel room tax. Let's assume their average room rate is $500 per night

At 145 rooms, 70% average occupancy that's 37,000 room nights. Or $1.4 million per year in ONLY the convention tax. The city takes in about $400 per year as is. That's a 350x increase in the city take just from one tax. I believe the streetcar would make $185k in sales taxes. That's wages for two drivers.

$1.4 million is roughly equal to the city take on property taxes from 2100 new $275k homes in a suburban neighborhood.


Now, the only thing you can say is only the city really benefits from that arrangement. But this isn't strictly true. In two years the higher value of this project should create an increase surrounding properties too. This increases the takings for all entities in general. It just won't be the increase the city saw.


The only thing to be careful around for TIF is to not give away existing tax amounts. The baseline should stay the same.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

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This property is assessed today at $500k. They don't pay much in taxes today.
They currently pay ZERO in property taxes bc they are exempt (501(c)(3)).

I think this can be framed as an opportunity for putting a chunk of land back onto the property tax payroll.
The owner is a non-profit, so they're paying zero dollars in property taxes. They don't have much incentive or pressure to sell. They could easily turn around and decide to build some PAC-related facility on the land (or nothing at all) which would keep it off the property tax payroll.
This is a chance to grow the tax-base. It will always be a high-end use since PAC gets to pick / reject who they sell to, so they are likely going to be very choosy. They probably are not interested in affordable housing right next to their crown jewel.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

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Zero vs millions in sales taxes is an even better deal.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by beautyfromashes »

flyingember wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:48 am Zero vs millions in sales taxes is an even better deal.
Exactly, so why are we giving into the anti-TIF crowd? This is a win for everyone.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by KCPowercat »

Because there are some hills not to die on. This is one for me. Seems kind of half baked idea. Plus knowing the garage is a huge cost prohibitive expense in these deals and a tax incentive garage is right next door I think a good plan can get this to work without mentioning the toxic T word.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by flyingember »

There's no garage in the project. They're using the one next door...
To sweeten their TIF request, they have pledged 25 percent of its proceeds would be distributed to taxing jurisdictions including the Kansas City School District and Kansas City Public Library.

The property currently generates about $1,500 in annual property taxes. Under the proposed TIF agreement, taxing jurisdictions would see that amount increase to $200,000 in the first year and rise gradually to $400,000 in the final year of the 23-year TIF Plan.

After the plan expires, the project would pay the full property tax of $1.3 million.
There's the numbers from last fall. That's even better.

And there's new jobs. There's noting particularly exciting about a small number of hotel jobs but more jobs is more jobs. We're talking about a snowball effect where each new job builds us up a little more.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

Post by beautyfromashes »

KCPowercat wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:27 pm Because there are some hills not to die on. This is one for me. Seems kind of half baked idea. Plus knowing the garage is a huge cost prohibitive expense in these deals and a tax incentive garage is right next door I think a good plan can get this to work without mentioning the toxic T word.
I guess I understand. I just don’t think avoiding “controversial” TIF projects will stop the anti-TIF crowd. They will fight against it til it’s gone. Best to push through as many projects for the benefit of the city until it’s gone.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

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DaveKCMO wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:34 am Good politicians work best when they're re-elected.
I disagree. Good politicians make the choice best for their constituents instead of just worrying about their re-election. Bad politicians pander. Good politicians lead.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

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flyingember wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:38 pm There's no garage in the project. They're using the one next door...
To sweeten their TIF request, they have pledged 25 percent of its proceeds would be distributed to taxing jurisdictions including the Kansas City School District and Kansas City Public Library.

The property currently generates about $1,500 in annual property taxes. Under the proposed TIF agreement, taxing jurisdictions would see that amount increase to $200,000 in the first year and rise gradually to $400,000 in the final year of the 23-year TIF Plan.

After the plan expires, the project would pay the full property tax of $1.3 million.
There's the numbers from last fall. That's even better.

And there's new jobs. There's noting particularly exciting about a small number of hotel jobs but more jobs is more jobs. We're talking about a snowball effect where each new job builds us up a little more.
In regards to the garage....... Three Light is getting ~12% incentive which is going to build the garage. This project is using an existing TIF garage (usually a big expense) ,yet still requires a 30%+ incentive.
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Re: Hotel Bravo- 17th and Wyandotte

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beautyfromashes wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:40 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:27 pm Because there are some hills not to die on. This is one for me. Seems kind of half baked idea. Plus knowing the garage is a huge cost prohibitive expense in these deals and a tax incentive garage is right next door I think a good plan can get this to work without mentioning the toxic T word.
I guess I understand. I just don’t think avoiding “controversial” TIF projects will stop the anti-TIF crowd. They will fight against it til it’s gone. Best to push through as many projects for the benefit of the city until it’s gone.
I agree. I'm just kind of Switzerland on this one.
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