DEAD > 1640- BNIM HQ

Issues concerning Downtown as described by the Downtown Council. River to 31st Street, I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins.
User avatar
FangKC
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 18231
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:02 pm
Location: Old Northeast -- Indian Mound

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by FangKC »

kboish wrote:I just recently starting hearing how the school district has $X million dollars in deferred maintenance. And so incentives are bad and caused this and any concerned parent needs to rise up against incentives... huh? So you're saying if none of these incentives had been used the school district wouldn't have any deferred maintenance? or are they saying if incentives are stopped then they would be able to start addressing this deferred maintenance? Is that even how deferred maintenance (major rehab construction projects) are paid for? Wouldn't they need to issue bonds to do that? Does that mean if incentives are capped the school district is promising not to ask for any money (tax increases) in the future for capital needs because they were able to stop all incentives?
The deferred maintenance issue being blamed on current tax incentives is ridiculous. The major problem for the KCPSD is two-fold.

They simply have/had too many buildings to maintain for their diminished enrollment. It's a district that used to serve more than 70,000 students than now has less than 18,000 students. They held on to too many school buildings for too long, and couldn't afford to maintain them. The district still has inefficiencies. For example, in the Old Northeast neighborhood, there are probably too many elementary school buildings for this neighborhood. There are James, Garfield, Gladstone, Woodland, Whittier, and charter schools Della Lamb, Scoula Vita Nouva, and Alta Vista Academia de Ninos. You have five elementary school buildings to maintain under KCPSD control, in a relatively small area, for a much smaller student population. The district could probably get by with one or two buildings to serve this area. The school district is even talking about tearing down James Elementary, and rebuilding it, because it's an old school with no air-conditioning. The more cost-effective long-term solution would probably be to close down all five of the current schools, and build one new elementary school building to serve the entire area. Then there would only be one elementary school to maintain, not five.

Keep in mind, the charter schools also get money from the District, so you have to also maintain those buildings.

https://www.google.com/maps/search/elem ... a=!3m1!1e3

The second issue is that most of the school district sits in a part of the city that has become depopulated and property assessments devalued. There are thousands of vacant lots, abandoned houses, and buildings where the property value is nill, and produce no tax revenue for the school district. Many vacant houses are owned by the City and County, and thus produce no revenue--even in their diminished state. The remaining houses, that are still occupied, have very low tax assessments on them. A well-maintained 1200 sq. foot house east of Troost is worth half to a third as much as the same house west of Troost. Within the KCPSD, the area of KCMO east of Troost is much larger than the area of KCMO west of Troost. So most of the school district's tax base exists in a blighted area. Houses west of Troost provide at least twice as much tax revenue for the school district on average.

Downtown KC provides 25 percent of the tax revenues for the City, and I'm assuming for the school district as well. Downtown is the rich uncle in the family, and that is why people living in the KCPSD focus so much on tax incentives being given downtown. The rich uncle can't buy candy for his nieces and nephews right now, and they are pissed. They don't understand that if rich uncle doesn't reinvest in his business, there will be even less candy in the future.

The perception of crime on the East Side is a much bigger long-term enemy to the KCPSD district than incentives being given downtown. We are talking about literally millions of dollars lost due to low property values on the East Side.
Last edited by FangKC on Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Highlander
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 10208
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:40 pm
Location: Houston

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by Highlander »

aknowledgeableperson wrote:"You are right, Gaslamp, LoDo etc were places people wanted to be, not places where the city had to force development"

In another topic I asked a question that basically asked "What do these 'suburban" locations offer people that downtown Kansas City doesn't offer?" Never really got an answer but some of what is posted above after the BNIM decision comes close to answering the question. I'm not saying KCMO shouldn't offer incentives but why does it have to offer so much? Because it seems the decision makers don't want to be downtown. And that is maybe because the city doesn't have an overall vision in mind for downtown. Each project is a piece but what is it a piece to? East Village was/is a dream, one that the city has had for a long time now. Even the Crossroads although it is a part of downtown but it seems isolated from not only from itself, East and West, but it seems separate from whatever vision the city has for the balance of downtown.
Maybe one way to get the area unified would be to have a downtown-wide CID. Any assessment or tax would help to fix streets, sidewalks, curbs, and streetscape for all of the downtown area. When it snows it gets the snow and ice off the sidewalks and haul it away if needed. The CID Board can make the spending decisions and work with the city on creating a vision of what downtown should look like, what it should be. Looking at it as a whole and not small individual pieces that may not fit other puzzle pieces in the box. Maybe before any permits are issued by the city the requests are sent to the CID board for review and comment. Yes, there is a Downtown Council or whatever but it's function seems lacking, there needs to be something with more authority, more responsibilities.
Another thing that may help would be to take the responsibility of parking away from owners/developers. The city could build a parking structure large enough, say a city block, to serve the eight blocks around it. The owners/businesses could then contract with the city for the spaces they would need for employees, or not need. Validate customer or client tickets or not.

And BTW concerning the comments about the Olathe hotel if I recollect correctly there is more than hotel rooms involved. There are also meeting rooms/exhibit space that is needed in the area. Something the city felt was needed in the area that a hotel developer did not initially see in its project.
Missing the issue. What do the burbs offer? It's inexpensive and easy. Period. Now couple that with huge incentives companies get to move to the burbs, and it's something that even a well-meaning urbanist at the head of a corporation would have to consider.

The KC Star just published an article stating that KC's commute is the second easiest in the US. This isn't a lifestyle or city vision thing, lets take that out of the equation because it's not part of it - KC is just too easy to get around. it's simply that it costs (X - something) to build in the burbs relative to (X) to build downtown - much of that related to land cost and parking. Put incentives on top of that and it becomes a difficult decision for anyone regardless of how idealistic they may be. I know I'd much rather be in a downtown environment - especially in a place like KC where traffic isn't an issue and walk across the street for lunch - than anywhere else. So many more options downtown and never more than 20-30 minutes from home.
aknowledgeableperson
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 12647
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:31 pm

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

But that then begs the question why would a company then spend more money to move downtown?
Cost, sure that is a factor but it's not the only one. Why did H&R Block move downtown then? The city bribe them more than the suburbs? Not sure of the costs of The Plaza vs downtown but why do companies choose The Plaza over downtown?
Now, instead of building a HQ what about those companies that just lease space. Why do they choose the suburbs over downtown? Cost of Class A space? Overall costs? Availability of space?
Is it an image problem? Years ago businesses seem to prefer a College Blvd area address, or a Plaza address, and even a Crown Center address over what I would call an inside the loop downtown address.
User avatar
FangKC
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 18231
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:02 pm
Location: Old Northeast -- Indian Mound

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by FangKC »

There are several reasons.

The stockyards until it closed in 1991, and the starch plant in NKC.

Parking issues

Difficulty in assembling sites and land hoarding.

Aesthetic reasons. Downtown was allowed to deteriorate for too long, and image-conscious companies didn't want to have a building sitting on a street with broken sidewalks, derelict buildings, and panhandlers.

Loss of retail density. Many former retail buildings were demolished for surface parking, and to erect larger office buildings.

Competition from more controlled environments like Crown Center, the Plaza, and Corporate Woods. Consistent maintenance, quality control, and landscaping.

Perception of crime, and the panhandling problem. Panhandlers in Downtown were very aggressive--more so than you would expect, and the City and Police Department took much too long dealing with it.

Racism I think played a bigger part than anyone will admit. The black population had become a sizable presence. Whites not only fled their homes and neighborhoods, but business leaders also moved to more lily-white environs, and took the companies they controlled. It didn't just happen in Kansas City, but in a lot of cities.

The last reason is indifference. I think a lot of city leaders and business people just didn't care about these problems.

Now on to your question about why a company would spend more to be Downtown.

Many companies realize the value of being located near other businesses in a dense environment, and are willing to pay higher rents.

There are studies that confirm that productivity and innovation are higher in denser professional environments. There is a reason that professions and industries tend to group together in certain places.

Even in New York City, one of the most expensive real estate markets in the world, companies tend to stay in Manhattan--even when it would be much cheaper to locate in Brooklyn, New Jersey, or Connecticut.

A central location with access to mass transit makes it easier for employees from all parts of the Metro to assemble in one location, and provides shorter commutes for more people.

So now we are starting to see companies move back to urban cores, and a lot of that is being driven simply because that is where younger workers are choosing to live.
User avatar
DaveKCMO
Ambassador
Posts: 20063
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by DaveKCMO »

FangKC wrote:So now we are starting to see companies move back to urban cores, and a lot of that is being driven simply because that is where younger workers are choosing to live.
this is why my current employer chose to relocate from overland park to the loop.
aknowledgeableperson
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 12647
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:31 pm

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

There are several reasons.

The stockyards until it closed in 1991, and the starch plant in NKC.
Long ago the stockyards was an issue (that is why many of the rich moved from Quality Hill to the Armour area) but by the 70's it was mostly a moot issue. Worked eight years at Kemper and even then the stockyards wasn't much of an issue. And the starch plant was probably less of an issue, especially during my days of working downtown and occasionally going to the River Market area. So old issues, how do they directly affect what is involved in the decision making process now?
Parking issues
That is a big issue, maybe one the city blew years ago by depending on building developers to build parking garages instead of the city building centralized parking structures.
Difficulty in assembling sites and land hoarding.
That is a problem, less than before but can be overcome using eminent domain. My position with the city for nine years had me associated with the city's real estate office. Property ownership can be held by trusts established long ago. It does take time but it has been done over and over again.
Aesthetic reasons. Downtown was allowed to deteriorate for too long, and image-conscious companies didn't want to have a building sitting on a street with broken sidewalks, derelict buildings, and panhandlers.
New buildings have been built in the past.
Loss of retail density. Many former retail buildings were demolished for surface parking, and to erect larger office buildings.
Even if those retail buildings were still around they wouldn't have an affect on current effect on retail. What's on the Jones Store site? Retail was once found in Town Pavilion and City Center Sq - what is that retail space now?
Competition from more controlled environments like Crown Center, the Plaza, and Corporate Woods. Consistent maintenance, quality control, and landscaping.
And that is probably has a greater affect than many acknowledge. But what about the downtown areas of other cities?
Perception of crime, and the panhandling problem. Panhandlers in Downtown were very aggressive--more so than you would expect, and the City and Police Department took much too long dealing with it.
Along with controlled environments that has a big effect. Other cities have overcome the same problem though. Look at New York and Chicago, their crime is on TV every week.
Racism I think played a bigger part than anyone will admit. The black population had become a sizable presence. Whites not only fled their homes and neighborhoods, but business leaders also moved to more lily-white environs, and took the companies they controlled. It didn't just happen in Kansas City, but in a lot of cities.
Hate to say it again but haven't other cities overcome this same problem?
The last reason is indifference. I think a lot of city leaders and business people just didn't care about these problems.
Sometimes you will find the enemy is from within. Can remember the heated discussions different sides took when the city expanded Bartle Hall over the highway. Many old time downtown business interests didn't want it over the highway, instead they wanted an L shape coming down between 14th and the highway. Going over the highway meant the city was leaving the loop behind in favor of landholders south of the highway.

Now on to your question about why a company would spend more to be Downtown.

Many companies realize the value of being located near other businesses in a dense environment, and are willing to pay higher rents.
But why isn't that happening more in Kansas City?
There are studies that confirm that productivity and innovation are higher in denser professional environments. There is a reason that professions and industries tend to group together in certain places.
Can't say one way or another about that. But look at the complex Apple is building. Google, yes in Silicon Valley but still not in a downtown environment.
Even in New York City, one of the most expensive real estate markets in the world, companies tend to stay in Manhattan--even when it would be much cheaper to locate in Brooklyn, New Jersey, or Connecticut.
And they are willing to stay there and stay there but why? Companies may be willing to pay the rents there and in other high rent cities but when it comes to the Kansas City area where do they go?
A central location with access to mass transit makes it easier for employees from all parts of the Metro to assemble in one location, and provides shorter commutes for more people.
But many businesses are not choosing KC's central location and that is the basis for my question? Why does KC's downtown still come into second place in the area. Downtown Kansas City does have its advantages, much like other downtowns of other cities, but it advantages don't seem to outweigh its disadvantages like other cities.

So now we are starting to see companies move back to urban cores, and a lot of that is being driven simply because that is where younger workers are choosing to live.
True, but how many of those companies does it take to equal a Cerner? Or many other tech companies located in the Kansas City area but not in downtown, located in other areas of the city.
aknowledgeableperson
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 12647
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:31 pm

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

DaveKCMO wrote:
FangKC wrote:So now we are starting to see companies move back to urban cores, and a lot of that is being driven simply because that is where younger workers are choosing to live.
this is why my current employer chose to relocate from overland park to the loop.
Don't know how big your company is but maybe that is the secret from downtown. Instead of going after the big fish go after the small fry. Regrow downtown jobs as these small fries grow into bigger fish and need more space and attract other small fry. It may take longer than securing a Cerner but it will give KC time to get the streetcar expanded further south and into the northland and work out a correct way to expand to the east. Time for Kansas City to determine what kind of vision it sees for the future. Time for Kansas City to work out it's downtown problems.
mgh7676
Western Auto Lofts
Western Auto Lofts
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:00 am

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by mgh7676 »

Apparently the demo fence is already up...
https://twitter.com/downtownkc/status/6 ... 5000295426
User avatar
KCPowercat
Ambassador
Posts: 34027
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 12:49 pm
Location: Quality Hill
Contact:

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by KCPowercat »

mgh7676 wrote:Apparently the demo fence is already up...
https://twitter.com/downtownkc/status/6 ... 5000295426
Error on my part. Sorry bout that.
JBmidtown
Colonnade
Colonnade
Posts: 748
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:31 am

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by JBmidtown »

KCPowercat wrote:
mgh7676 wrote:Apparently the demo fence is already up...
https://twitter.com/downtownkc/status/6 ... 5000295426
Error on my part. Sorry bout that.
were you referencing the demo fence for Crossroads West?
User avatar
Highlander
City Center Square
City Center Square
Posts: 10208
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:40 pm
Location: Houston

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by Highlander »

Where is BNIM now? Weren't they once in the P&L Building?
User avatar
taxi
Penntower
Penntower
Posts: 2101
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:32 am
Location: North End
Contact:

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by taxi »

Yeah, then they moved to the TWA rocket ship building.
flyingember
Mark Twain Tower
Mark Twain Tower
Posts: 9862
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 am

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by flyingember »

taxi wrote:Yeah, then they moved to the TWA rocket ship building.
I interviewed with them well before they moved. Absolutely stunning office space with NO privacy for most workers. They had open concept everything to the extreme.
User avatar
KCtoBrooklyn
Alameda Tower
Alameda Tower
Posts: 1261
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:01 pm

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by KCtoBrooklyn »

I have heard that BNIM is looking at the building on the NW corner of 31st and Troost.

I don't know where they will end up - and it is possible could wind up in the suburbs - but I think the people who jumped to the conclusion that they would go to JoCo when they didn't get the incentives from KC don't know a lot about the company. Everything I know about them and the people that work there leads me to believe that they will stay in the city. They seem very urban KC oriented.
User avatar
FangKC
City Hall
City Hall
Posts: 18231
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:02 pm
Location: Old Northeast -- Indian Mound

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by FangKC »

Why Kansas City's Tax Deals For Development Are In Trouble

By KEVIN COLLISON

http://kcur.org/post/why-kansas-citys-t ... e#stream/0
kboish
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3258
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:25 am
Location: West Plaza

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by kboish »

Boy, don't we all miss Kevin Collison? We should get him on the rag to do a AMA. I'd love to hear some stories about development during his time at the Star.
kboish
Hotel President
Hotel President
Posts: 3258
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:25 am
Location: West Plaza

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by kboish »

BNIM moving HQ to Crown Center. 5 year lease.

http://kcur.org/post/bnim-moving-headqu ... own-center
zonk
Alameda Tower
Alameda Tower
Posts: 1250
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 12:07 pm
Location: downtown

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by zonk »

Hard to get excited about that decision...
User avatar
DaveKCMO
Ambassador
Posts: 20063
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:22 pm
Location: Crossroads
Contact:

Re: 1640- BNIM HQ

Post by DaveKCMO »

zonk wrote:Hard to get excited about that decision...
but... SKYSCRAPER ON ITS SIDE
Post Reply